CampinJeff wrote: ↑Bikes would be a proper choice in these situations, but GDI would bring out MLRS to counter. Mistakes were made on both sides often. But since these mostly focus on straight up tank spam, GDI seems to have a huge advantage because of the AGT and ltank/mtank price/performance differences. Lights just have a lot of trouble staying alive; whatever counters mediums works far better against lights, and they usually end up dying without making up for what they're worth.
As for the surprise attacks, I've seen anjew as GDI pulling off the same stunts with mediums and doing far more damage for cost. Just 3 mediums sneaking in can deal some serious damage compared to 3 lights (only 300 credit difference).
Except GDI didn't bring in MLRS.
Light tanks are not the counter to mediums anyways. They are light mobile base raiders with damage soaking for other lighter units (AKA Bikes).
Counters that work against mediums will always work better against lights because they are not frontal assault units.
GDI medium tanks do not make good surprise attacks UNLESS you have no eyes on the map. If you have eyes on the map you will always see the medium tanks coming. If you tie them with an infantry force they become a lot less mobile.
three mediums vs three lights can do damage depending on the situation. Lights move faster mediums do not. Mediums are capable of dieing a lot quicker depending on the units chasing them. Lights are capable of escaping more so due to their speeds.
I really think the MSAM needs a HP buff.
A full Orca volley will take out an MSAM where as though it does a bit under 50% to the APC.
The MSAM is the same price as the APC and does a lot less. I would say that their AA capabilities are on par however due to the MSAM being incredibly weak it is a much worse AA unit.
MSAMs could have heavy armor too, to match the apc. Right now, in the playtest, the APC has so many advantages over the MSAM despite both being 600 credits.
I've also noticed SAM sites and AGTs when shooting air, their missiles no longer track all the way. Not sure if this is a bug or intentional.
I know I'm being annoying about this, but after many games I've been watching it's still coming down to GDI doing their med/inf spam and overwhelming Nod as the game drags on unless some lucky thing happens like GDI forgetting to watch a chokepoint. When it gets to 2-3 factories producing meds, microing slowly gets less and less significant because of the sheer number of tanks Nod has to face up against. Spamming bikes isn't going to be as much of a counter as against 1 wf because it's very difficult to multi-micro different groups of bikes at once, and when you're controlling a group of 10+ bikes to attack 1 medium, you start doing overkill damage. And when MLRS are out there, bikes either just get wiped out without doing any real damage to a medium tank blob, left alone as sitting ducks, or go on a suicide mission by taking out as many MLRS as possible (obv not the best solution).
AGTs I feel are too strong for what they're worth, despite having a long build time. They're just so good against everything Nod has to offer except Chem warriors, and that's a late game unit. The huge splash damage and the infantry suppression makes them excellent support for anti-inf. Light vehicles in numbers are the ones responsible to take out AGTs in most cases, but most of the time is never worth it especially when it's supported by GDI units. Best, and only time to take them out is when they're alone (I mean, one AGT alone and literally no GDI units nearby), and Nod will still likely lose a bike or two along with a good chunk of them damaged from rocket splash when GDI micros. Light tanks work too in the same circumstances, but with the price at 700 now, people now start thinking twice about throwing them at base defenses to soak damage.
In team games, I see that GDI is always the favorable faction because these games usually come down to who can blob the most of 1 unit w/ varied support, and that usually being Light tanks and Medium Tanks b/c of their mobility and versatility. It's a fact that medium tank blobs are so much stronger than light tanks, and since there's double, triple, or quadruple the units out there, catching a flank off-guard is very rare without running into AGTs/units and losing most of your army. I'm still leaning towards some kind of Ltank buff or Med nerf.
The 1-click support powers are also much more devastating to Nod units than GDI, as an airstrike usually just heavily damages mediums (repair pad) while on the other hand they destroy pretty much any Nod vehicle caught in the firebombs. We've already covered the ridiculously strong Ion cannon compared to nukes.
I think the problem is that Nod has a steeper learning curve and is arguably harder to play. There's far more micro involved (Pulling light tanks back and forth, poking in with bikes, controlling flame troopers to attack inf, E3/Minigunner micro, ctrl-x, buggy shooting inf if they're around, distancing your army from your own flame tanks, maybe more). Compared to GDI, they usually plop an AGT in their base for defense, group meds and e3 in 1, minigunners in 2, MLRS in 3, a-move, and do minor micro from there just by clicking 1 to kill armor, 2 to kill inf, and 3 to kill light vehicles.
I'm sorry but this is just starting to get stale and a little annoying with GDI doing the same thing over and over again with Nod struggling to counter despite having to work almost twice as hard. I didn't even cover early game bike/buggy against humvee spam, and that obviously not ending well on Nod's end.
Be advised that you aren't being annoying. This is what a debate is all about
The bikes are the counter to the current GDI builds people are doing. 10+ bikes to one medium being overkill is quite fine if the player is building a lot of them. The buggy bike combination is a contain and scout group.
AGTs are takened down easily by bikes and mixed with tanks as well do a lot of damage. GDI is about the hold and defend but if they are unable to push out and you contain them (as mentioned above) then its GG for them.
In team games, people using lights vs Mediums is a bad idea anyways because lights are not frontal assault units. They are base raiders and hit and run units. They are useful for damage soaking but require a backup unit for damage.
The control and movement is more required on Nod side due to their need of mixed bulk forces. But that is also why a lot of their units are produced faster and cheaper then GDI units. They also have a much larger selection of units to use in comparison. If you are learning about the game GDI is the choice to go with. But as mentioned, if players can move Nod units around extremely well and beat the GDI tactics then anyone can as well. It is not a wise idea to nerf/buff a unit because some players are unable too. Otherwise you will soon find Nod light tanks or bikes way to OP (Like the tanks once were).
If GDI players are doing these tactics across the board then it sounds like im going to have some fun playing as Nod. Expect to see me in a lot of 1v1 gameplays and some 2v2 teamed with Anjew.
Could silos possibly be more..useful? I was thinking other than a price decrease (300 is a bit hefty), they can be used to build walls off of. It would be a cheap way to increase the radius without interrupting your structure build.
Also was wondering if husks captured by engineers would be fully repaired once taken instead of partially damaged. Particularly so this tactic would be a lot more useful other than taking your teammate's MCVs.
Silos is in the unknown category. Many debates have gone off on what to do with it. Price decrease would be a start but as far as walls go that would require testing as chain reacting several silos would be a bit silly to increase wall radius. Would also look a little strange to build out from the radius circle.
The reason capturing husks only gives health in red is to prevent units dieing in battle and then suddenly full HP unit right in battle. (AKA Mammoth tanks dieing and become the lord of Necron.) Im instead looking to increase the husk decay time so they don't disappear as fast but not to long to cause traffic jams too.
AoAGeneral1 wrote: ↑Silos is in the unknown category. Many debates have gone off on what to do with it. Price decrease would be a start but as far as walls go that would require testing as chain reacting several silos would be a bit silly to increase wall radius. Would also look a little strange to build out from the radius circle.
The reason capturing husks only gives health in red is to prevent units dieing in battle and then suddenly full HP unit right in battle. (AKA Mammoth tanks dieing and become the lord of Necron.) Im instead looking to increase the husk decay time so they don't disappear as fast but not to long to cause traffic jams too.
I meant that silos wouldn't affect the build radius of the actual structures (including other silos) and instead only affect wall/sandbag/fence placements. Also if I'm not mistaken you can already build walls outside the MCV radius in the current release.
I was thinking that too about mammoths, but engineers are moderately expensive, somewhat slow, somewhat long build time, and very fragile. You can always snipe them before they take the husk, or destroy husks more often if you're losing ground and you know your opponent has engineers wandering about. At its current state I feel its a very risky yet unrewarding tactic. Maybe the remaining health could be teaked for specific units, ex. Mammoths/harvesters/mcvs having low health, mediums/lights/stanks/artillery with 3/4 health, light vehicles and APCs full health.
The current radius for the walls is bugged and looking to be fixed but won't make this release at the moment.
For the silos I don't want them extending to far outside of its radius as it is because this would cause walling from great distances to happen. Which can damage tactics from factions on certain maps (IE Deterring Democracy + vs Nod and limiting them of their movement without penalty)
For the husks in a GDI vs Nod scenario if GDI holds their ground and loses tanks but is captured with engineers then its technically not a loss. You just repaired a vehicle worth 800 with only 500. Same goes for a mammoth if it dies worth 1500 vs 500 costing. This would cause issues in the sense that Nod is not able to hold ground vs GDI but can snipe units out if the GDI doesn't manage them well. But if Nod has to pull bikes and buggies back with each attack then this gives GDI time to capture those units.
As you mentioned about sniping engineers its a possible but to what cost of the Nod army just to stop 5 engineers? It would become extremely annoying to have to stop them and even more frustrating for the Nod player if GDI players use APCs to house the engineers for protection.
The future fixes planned for the husks and certain unit buffs will make it worth capturing the husks with engineers in that risk vs reward and if done in a smart way can be extremely game changing. I don't think a HP increase is needed.
There is an idea on a change to harvs that would promote other build tactics. Changing the harv build timer from 24 to 29 would slow rush tactics down and the problem of massing up harvesters easily in games.
Likewise, reducing the power on tiberium refineries from 50 to 40 would promote some quick barrack plays and other strategies. Rather then having the prime to go quick airstrip/war factory for massing harvesters.
