What is the worst problem of Allies and why

need opinion of actual players

Discussion about the game and its default mods.
User avatar
MlemandPurrs
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:40 pm

What is the worst problem of Allies and why

Post by MlemandPurrs » Sun May 05, 2019 1:26 pm

In order to devise some improvement first need to assess what the problem is. State what you think is wrong about the Allies here in this threade.
-What do you find lacking about Allies in general ?
-Where does Allies faction struggle the most during flow of the game ?
-What makes Allies versus Soviet an undesireable match-up ? Is it lack of firepower lategame ? perhaps not enough AA measures ?
opinion of players participating in competitive play are inspecially welcome here.

SirCake
Posts: 329
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:40 pm

Re: What is the worst problem of Allies and why

Post by SirCake » Mon May 06, 2019 5:14 am

In my opinion the allies problem is an imbalance in power among their units. Some of them are really really good, so good it's not worth making the other units.
Then, if you buff those units allies immediately become too strong, and that's why they are not being buffed.

Too good: Hind, pillbox, AAgun
Too weak: Gunboat, light tank, MRG, MGG, gap generator, ranger

Soviet on the other hand have many units balanced in power against each other. every unit has its place.

eskimo
Posts: 307
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:59 pm

Re: What is the worst problem of Allies and why

Post by eskimo » Mon May 06, 2019 6:43 am

Both sides got additional units to up their strength in weaker areas early development. Sadly Soviets got the better draw, and ended up a better, more enjoyable faction.

Allies got the Hind, and buffed AA and GPS from the original. And people now still want to give the Hind to Soviets (hind to both factions).

So again, Soviets got more love because it came easier. Allies don't because they need a radical overhaul to match the Soviet fun.

Buffing/nerfing units with the current layout changes nothing from an enjoyment perpective.

User avatar
Smitty
Posts: 191
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2016 1:33 am
Location: Oklahoma

Re: What is the worst problem of Allies and why

Post by Smitty » Mon May 06, 2019 3:14 pm

Soviets always had more potential in terms of development. Dogs and hijackers being broken 'till now for example. I don't think we have as big of a disparity as when there were $400 pillboxes.

Now that sovs have all their units fixed, (sans the MAD tank), it should be easier to balance. I say that, but as development of new features like opportunity fire continues there will always be new things affecting balance outside of the official 'balance patches'.

Of course the hind issue is another animal. Personally I would avoid any necessary re-balancing by just reskinning the hind to a cobra or huey for multiplayer-skirmish only, and not give the soviets a helicopter. The lack of air transport for the commies is a map making issue and not a balance issue imho.

User avatar
Materianer
Posts: 187
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 8:27 am

Re: What is the worst problem of Allies and why

Post by Materianer » Mon May 06, 2019 4:34 pm

eskimo wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 6:43 am
Both sides got additional units to up their strength in weaker areas early development. Sadly Soviets got the better draw, and ended up a better, more enjoyable faction.
I would say Soviets are more enjoyable than england and france yes.
If you play as Germany it can be a lot of fun with mechanics and chronotanks.
But the mechanic unfortunately had some direct and indirect nerfs since the last release and its more risky to go that special taktik now.

But If you take france or england its much worse, you can choose between arty and medium tank.
Usally if you fight with your base next to another one you shold go for artys. With aa and gunturret support they are really strong, on open fields they just suck. If you think now "Nah i just build a mass of rocketeers and let them supprt!" that can be a fatal mistake, especially against an soviet player.
They often shoot the yaks then down and the crash destroys more stuff than a hind would get with one ammopool.
Its the same if someone goes for turteling. Like no chance to cath an arty with a hind if it is well placed.

Thats why i'm wondering that people still think soviets would be much stronger with the hind.
eskimo wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 6:43 am
And people now still want to give the Hind to Soviets (hind to both factions).
Btw you can test this hind to sovs thing if you want the maps with the small helicopter symbol come with this change.
https://resource.openra.net/maps/uploader/114/page/2/

But back to topic, i'm not sure wich faction is more mikey mouse. France with the fake structures or england with the english spy wich now cant even steal money anymore.

But i dont want to complain here all the time that is not really productive hehe
eskimo wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 6:43 am
Buffing/nerfing units with the current layout changes nothing from an enjoyment perpective.
Thats true we need some new ideas what could be done beside the current layout.
Germany doesnt really seem to need love with its special chronoshere and ctanks.
Please dont just give this advanced chronosphere to england and france that would make a step backwards to differ the allied factions.

- The sniperdrop could be one idea of course, i dont know why it is not already in.
- A chrono vortex from the original game could make allies factions stronger and balance the difference between iron curtain and chrono.
- Maybe upgrades available with the tech center, that could be done like yo can choose one or more of different upgrates maybe you have 3 upgratepoints wich you can choose but can upgrade one thing only 2 times.
So you can go for 2 unitspeed-upgrates and one firepower for example. Something like that its just an idea.
In original the differences between lands where only in some unitvalues if i remember this right?

Btw in this map i reanimated a custom GPS/ sattelite thanks to Gabesz for creating this a while ago. It works with the Attackwander trait
https://resource.openra.net/maps/31308/
But thats maybe nothing for the normal ra mod like sircakes swimming tanya or lighttanks.
A lot of fun to use but too abstract to be normal oO
Thats a good closingphrase :)

User avatar
ZxGanon
Posts: 155
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:40 pm

Re: What is the worst problem of Allies and why

Post by ZxGanon » Tue May 07, 2019 3:13 pm

Allies are weaker in super early game (first 3 minutes) because of the Soviet Dog overperforming on maps where tech structures are placed next to each other or the middle is the dominant position to win a game.

In my opinion Allies are stronger than Soviets because of those cheap raiding squads of Medium Tanks combined with the powerlevel of Hinds and the map lockdown through Pillboxes + AA Gun.

In late game Soviets have an easy time winning against Allies because of the Mammoth Tank and the fact that the Chronosphere (not the German variant) is useless. The Iron Curtain can win the Soviet so many engagements while the vanilla Chonosphere does alsmot nothing to get you further ahead (not even talking of maybe granting you a chance of comeback).

User avatar
Punsho
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:56 pm
Location: Lithuania

Re: What is the worst problem of Allies and why

Post by Punsho » Wed May 08, 2019 7:33 pm

SirCake wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 5:14 am
Too good: Hind, pillbox, AAgun
Too weak: Gunboat, light tank, MRG, MGG, gap generator, ranger
Well... Ranger is currently one of the best early game vehicle in the game that can also be useful in midgame. Orb has proven that. It can be used to reliably snipe out reinforcing and relocating infantry. Can deliver spies right next to War factories, barracks, powerplants and others like them.
ZxGanon wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 3:13 pm
Allies are weaker in super early game (first 3 minutes) because of the Soviet Dog overperforming on maps where tech structures are placed next to each other or the middle is the dominant position to win a game.

In late game Soviets have an easy time winning against Allies because of the Mammoth Tank and the fact that the Chronosphere (not the German variant) is useless. The Iron Curtain can win the Soviet so many engagements while the vanilla Chonosphere does alsmot nothing to get you further ahead (not even talking of maybe granting you a chance of comeback).
I fully agree to these and I already proposed solutions in my NSFO balance changes https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/issues/16418

User avatar
Upps
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:54 pm
Location: Germany

Re: What is the worst problem of Allies and why

Post by Upps » Thu May 09, 2019 12:13 pm

Allies problems are how they are designed to play, go for mass MT with some few Arty or/and go for Arty and lockdown a area with tons of defence and slowly basecrawl + the Hinds. A mobile AA will change how to play Allies complete way more dynamic, but i can image how they can overperform with this change, because Arty with their fast fire can and will without changes kill everything. When Mobile-AA can protect them good.

A other problem is the overperforming Mammoth Tank to strong to much anti Everything. The same Problem have TD Teamgames.
Disable his AA which make him to a pure anti Ground Monster or make the MRJ better in form of a bigger Antiair radius the snipe some with Longbows. Or a shorttime bigger Anti Rocket radius which work with a chargingbar.

The Chronosphere is to weak compared to the IC. One Idea from me to change how to use Chronosphere/IC
IC: select some units and press the IC Icon to IC example 5 Vehicle if you select more then 5 Vehicel let a rng deal with that (no more missfire).
Chronosphere: the same like above with the extra click where to Chrono. Or as example a 7 cell Radius which Chrono as example 5 Vehicel to a defined position at this position they have their standard plus formation. Easier to handel in my opinion then the current method.

Spys: Let them steal cash again or disable it from the Thief.

lawANDorder
Posts: 101
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:20 pm

Re: What is the worst problem of Allies and why

Post by lawANDorder » Thu May 09, 2019 4:33 pm

This depends on the perspective. If the goal is to recreate the original RA, their biggest problem is having the Hind on their side while it belongs to soviets. If you answer the question from a competetive point of view with the goal to balance the main factions to be equally strong and fun to play/watch, their designated static playstyle is probably the biggest problem. We are IMO getting closer to utilize their full potential and but can't overcome the "design flaws" westwood has made when creating a game which never focused on online multiplayer or even competetive play (by far not everyone had internet at that time - it was the *beginning* of the LAN party era). So from that perspective their whole design is a problem, and it makes sense to overhaul them completely, including adding new units and support powers. Thus the biggest problem for OpenRA is to balance out goals (remake/modern competetive RTS game) that diverge more and more the closer you get to reach one or the other goal which effectively stalls progress to reach any of them.

SirCake
Posts: 329
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:40 pm

Re: What is the worst problem of Allies and why

Post by SirCake » Sat May 11, 2019 3:33 pm

Punsho wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 7:33 pm
Well... Ranger is currently one of the best early game vehicle in the game that can also be useful in midgame. Orb has proven that. It can be used to reliably snipe out reinforcing and relocating infantry. Can deliver spies right next to War factories, barracks, powerplants and others like them.
Well, If soviet gets a flak truck first, that one defeats a ranger easily. Debatable whether ranger is "better". Also APC first wil destroy infantry more directly, without even micro involved.

While building billions of med. tanks is actually a valid strat, the ranger is unviable past the 3 minute mark and not worth building.

Armor up and speed down should make it better and less frustrating. I noticed that many fast units get actually better when slowed down - ranger, mig, yak.

User avatar
Punsho
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:56 pm
Location: Lithuania

Re: What is the worst problem of Allies and why

Post by Punsho » Sun May 12, 2019 2:54 pm

SirCake wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 3:33 pm
Punsho wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 7:33 pm
Well... Ranger is currently one of the best early game vehicle in the game that can also be useful in midgame. Orb has proven that. It can be used to reliably snipe out reinforcing and relocating infantry. Can deliver spies right next to War factories, barracks, powerplants and others like them.
Well, If soviet gets a flak truck first, that one defeats a ranger easily. Debatable whether ranger is "better". Also APC first wil destroy infantry more directly, without even micro involved.

While building billions of med. tanks is actually a valid strat, the ranger is unviable past the 3 minute mark and not worth building.

Armor up and speed down should make it better and less frustrating. I noticed that many fast units get actually better when slowed down - ranger, mig, yak.
This opinion just seems ignorant opinion. APC requires micro against a confident opponent to get value. Mobile Flak has a hard time killing the Ranger as flak doesn't do a ton of damage and ranger is significantly faster. Also ranger has its use cases past minute 3 unlike Light Tank. I already gave one example

User avatar
FiveAces
Posts: 453
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2015 11:22 pm
Location: Vienna
Contact:

Re: What is the worst problem of Allies and why

Post by FiveAces » Sun May 12, 2019 8:59 pm

Punsho wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 2:54 pm
...
SirCake wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 3:33 pm
...
OpenRA has several balance shortcomings, but if you ask me, early vehicle design is not amongst them.
All four light vehicles have their clear use case and counterplay; they are all viable in their own way.

Let's examine them a bit more closely in the context of a non-mirror match where each player builds double ref into one light vehicle:

Ranger:

Pros:
-Great mobility and line of sight make it an amazing scout
-Excels at picking off single infantry, especially rocket soldiers
-Cargo slot can be used to sneak an engineer or spy behind enemy lines

Cons:
-Has no other use case
-Poor scaling into mid - and lategame, where tanks and and blobs push it into a pure scout role

Counterplay:
-Blob your infantry. The weapon has low range, it can not fight a 5-stack of rifles on its own.
-Hide rocket soldiers behind rifles.

Light Tank:

Pros:
-Good at disrupting early rifle blobs
-Great at warding off other light vehicles
-Can easily catch out unprotected MCVs

Cons:
-Horrible scaling, becomes obsolete as soon as combat tanks hit the field
-Damage output against anything other than light vehicles is underwhelming

Counterplay:
-Easily countered by 1-2 rocket soldiers.
-Other light vehicles have better mobility, so always keep them moving versus a LT.

Flak Truck:

Pros:
-Can easily poke infantry from outside their range with no relatiation thanks to its high range
-Great catch/chase potential against infantry and MCVs
-Great mid - and lategame scaling, where it becomes a feared HIND/artillery hunter

Cons:
-Low DPS gives the opponent more time to react before his units die
-Takes some time in combat to impact the battlefield

Counterplay:
-Provide line of sight support for your infantry to avoid being poked for free.
-Build medics to negate the bleed damage on your infantry.

APC:

Pros:
-The bane of all rifle blobs; great health pool and heavy armor make it nigh impervious to bullets
-Five cargo slots give it high potential for creative plays at all stages of the game - Hijacker heists, rocket harrassment, flamer drops...
-Good scaling into the lategame as a valuable Iron Curtain target for infantry crushes

Cons:
-Fixed MG makes it horrible at chasing
-Terrible turn rate makes retreating from bad positions very unlikely
-Very expensive for an early vehicle

Counterplay:
-Warded off by 3-4 rocket soldiers
-Can be baited into bad positions with no chance of escaping



In conclusion: All light vehicles have their niche, and I don't feel this aspect of the game needs tinkering or fixing!

SirCake
Posts: 329
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:40 pm

Re: What is the worst problem of Allies and why

Post by SirCake » Tue May 14, 2019 5:37 am

@punsho o come on, I can not be ignorant. I have been way too long in this game.

Nice calm analysis 5A. Great stuff. This thread is about "the problems of allies" though so I'd like to point out that both allies early vehicles become obsolete pretty quickly, while soviet have a great variety of late game combat units.

Edi(son Coil)
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:47 am

Re: What is the worst problem of Allies and why

Post by Edi(son Coil) » Sat May 18, 2019 10:40 am

Two suggestions for making the allied vehicle better at mid game:

Make the ranger like the NOD Buggy in SP, rocket soldier + ranger = mobile anti air

Repairing the light tanks with service depot upgrades them to medium tanks.

User avatar
Punsho
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:56 pm
Location: Lithuania

Re: What is the worst problem of Allies and why

Post by Punsho » Sat May 18, 2019 12:26 pm

SirCake wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 5:37 am
@punsho o come on, I can not be ignorant. I have been way too long in this game.
The time invested into the game means little to me. I constantly show veterans things they have never knew about the game.
Edi(son Coil) wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 10:40 am
Two suggestions for making the allied vehicle better at mid game:

Make the ranger like the NOD Buggy in SP, rocket soldier + ranger = mobile anti air

Repairing the light tanks with service depot upgrades them to medium tanks.
Believe me, ranger needs no buff. It's already really scary. On the other side Light Tank needs buffs as never trades well after 6 min mark

Post Reply