TD balance thread

anjew · Post by **anjew** » Sun Aug 07, 2016 10:20 pm

I think that recapture-able neutral buildings should be added into TD. It will give some use to these buildings. Often times it is not worth capturing the bio lab hospital or oil because it will be destroyed with no way of getting back, often not capitalising on the investment to capture it. Most players in TD agree as they too see these buildings are virtually useless.

AoAGeneral1 · Post by **AoAGeneral1** » Mon Aug 08, 2016 5:55 am

I do agree that they should be recapturable and will be more important if the aircraft mechanic works well. (Which by tomorrow I will have setup on a few maps.)

The issue currently is a disagreement about how it is done and the thesis behind it. Currently if the building is of high value it should be guarded to prevent destruction.

However, I see it as if the building is destroyed you need eyes on the map because its still a high value target for recapture. To have a chance with this push through though I need feedback. If other players are able to post their thoughts about it here or on a separate thread that would be awesome.

-------

As mentioned about the aircraft thanks to Insert Name and Norman I will start work on three map types. a 1v1, 2v2, and 3v3 map type for the aircraft mechanic. After that I will slowly expand out to a few other map types for testing. This mechanic needs TONS of feedback and testing. If capable I would like feedback with replays as well so I can view them for more close inspections.

-------------

There is now three maps with aircraft mechanics. Links below:

http://resource.openra.net/maps/15601/

http://resource.openra.net/maps/15600/

http://resource.openra.net/maps/15599/

If they do not appear online you can access them from my dropbox here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/y94ceqo78ci2i ... ramap?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wzdsk649zgfd3 ... ramap?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3ihdr05ank0wy ... ramap?dl=0

Norman_ · Post by **Norman_** » Thu Aug 11, 2016 3:05 am

tried to improve your airunit idea and reduced its damage vs specific targets (havent tested everything yet) - using more ammo with faster reload times for helis (and faster rockets) together with normal vs wood, light etc armor values made it op

http://resource.openra.net/maps/15633

AoAGeneral1 · Post by **AoAGeneral1** » Thu Aug 11, 2016 10:23 am

What about it made it OP though?

Norman_ · Post by **Norman_** » Thu Aug 11, 2016 2:52 pm

orcas and apaches were just too strong vs everything. 2 orcas vs one powerplant for example or vs harvester and tanks - 2 orcas vs one medium tank and they almost destroy it without reloading, 2 orcas vs warfactory and when orcas have to reload first time, factory only has about 50% hp left etc. orca vs apache air fights were to fast too, thats why i reduced damage for orca and apache, to see how that goes. (changed pipcount from 10 -> 5 @ orca but left all other settings untouched - only trying to adjust damage vs the different armor types atm to hopefully make it usable)

apache vs commando was another issue - apache dont have to reload to kill him and only needs 1, 2 secs for it. apache vs everything else too, compared to its default firepower. the real problems appear using 2 or more helis in groups.

i like the idea with less range and more firepower for both, but just shouldnt be too much. the reload times are hardcore - that together with faster missiles, more ammo made it a beast of a airunit %
slighty improved power compared to defaults would be nice (maybe also an apache with improved chances vs apc using a specific additional armor type for that case only to improve them vs apc only, without changing the normal apache vs heavy amor settings)
will try to compare some more results, standard helis and improved helis, how much time they need for different targets, when i find the time.

AoAGeneral1 · Post by **AoAGeneral1** » Fri Aug 12, 2016 3:40 am

Alright if you can as well try to include a replay too. This information helped a lot but somethings to consider with Orcas:

The Orcas do a lot of burst damage. That being said after the missiles are fired it takes time for them to reload and reloads a bit slowly compared to the apache. Where the apache does more damage the longer it stays. Orcas need to move back and forth. This makes the Orca less likely to kill higher targets such as buildings. Reducing the pipcount and the ammo it can hold means the Orca will be less effective in its armor vs roles.

I do agree with the Air vs Air though that does need some adjusting. I think right now Apaches dominate to much vs Orcas in comparison.

As for Apache vs infantry they are ment to counter them. Using vehicles should be a must as they are a required tech along the same lines as MSAMs.

Will see what the new numbers you suggested brings but I feel the Orcas will become a lot less powerful for the price they are required. Same issue that is caused with the current aircraft in cost vs effective use.

EDIT:

Something else to consider as well, the current AA units are not set for the new aircraft mechanics. If the new mechanic goes through I have some ideas on how to buff the AA units to make them more effective. This includes E3 as well. Currently however I do not plan on messing with that until the current ideas are set.

Also, forgot to ask, I didn't put through the Gun Turret buff in HP. How has that been doing? I felt that after the buggy/hummer nerf that it didn't need a HP buff.

anjew · Post by **anjew** » Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:01 am

I think that sam sites need their build time relaxed, it takes 32 seconds (longer than all the other defense structures, except AGT) and people often build them as soon as they need them which can be too late.
I say bring it in line with the turret and GT build time of 24seconds since it is AA dedicaed

Also I would really like to see a commando buff, infantry equal to his cost can take him out and lose only 3 units if you dont micro him. He can only shoot one cell out side of his vision range and requires a lot of work to use as an effective counter to infantry. That and you cant build them as a counter because more often than not the infantry are the most likely thing to kill the commandos. They are currently relegated to chinook nice memeing in the meta.

plus chem troopers are hectic, and if they ever get the crush damage, almost OP. GDI need a unit that can effectively deal with mass chems(grens get a little too close,they miss a lot of throws and their animation takes ages causing them to get easily surrounded and overwhelmed)

AoAGeneral1 · Post by **AoAGeneral1** » Fri Aug 12, 2016 8:41 am

Commando buff is being played around with on the sense of a range nerf. Its true the E1s have a longer range then in CNC95. Bringing this up a notch should help with some of this. Ive also been doing some weapon speed tests as well.

Samsites are going to get worked on in the future. Right now being at 28 is slightly to long but as of now aircraft are not being built as often either. That in regards the samsite being a direct counter should require sometime to be built. If the opponent scouts out the base and see they are going air play gives enough time to build the sam. However if the new mechanic goes over this will change.

Chem troopers are expensive units compared to grenadiers and minigunners. If you mix the both of them together they will effectively counter the chems. The mechanic of the grenade is to prevent mass units. They will miss the frontliners but hit the liners following in. You can also use force fire on the ground to destroy them as well for longer range. (Did this killing minigunners in some of the past games when I lost an MCV early on.)

AoAGeneral1 · Post by **AoAGeneral1** » Tue Aug 16, 2016 7:55 am

The following are ideas only:

Commando weapon range increase to 8c0 from 6c0.

Commando weapon projectile speed increase from 1c682 to 5c682.

--------------------

NOTES:

Playing through the campaign again on OpenRA was a lot of fun. But I found something incredibly disturbing when I played infiltrate the base mission on the hardest difficult. Rocket infantry have the SAME EXACT range as the Commandos. Wow.

I took a closer look at the weapons and realized they match up. While the minigunners is 4c0 which is only two off from the Commando. Increasing the range will give the Commandos a decent merit for use in multiplayer. I had to increase the projectile speed due to this increase because infantry on the move were not getting one shot. I believe this issue is present in the current version as well.

I haven't increased the Commandos vision because im unsure if this would be to powerful rather then having the Commando being able to see farther then a lot of the vehicles. Thoughts and feedback?

AIRCRAFT:

The aircraft mechanic is being tweaked again tomorrow. Look for the maps named T2 versions which will be using a lot of Normans modifications. I like a large majority of his tweaks except for the Orcas. I feel the Orcas do to little damage but I will save that for feedback. I do however like his idea on aircraft doing less damage doing air vs air but this needs to be tweaked around.

------------------

MAPS:

Maps are updated to T2. Links here:

http://resource.openra.net/maps/15748/

http://resource.openra.net/maps/15748/

http://resource.openra.net/maps/15747/

Changes listed here copying from Norman:

2nd Aircraft Test
Apache:
Ammo: 10 -> 14
PipCount: 5 -> 7
ReloadCount: 10 -> 14
SelfReloadDelay: 200 -> 100

Apache MG:
ReloadDelay: 20 -> 5
Range: 4c0 -> 3c0
None: 100 -> 60
Wood: 50 -> 35
Light: 75 -> 50
Heavy: 25 -> 15
Concrete: 100 -> 80
Light: 50 -> 30 (AA)

Orca:
TurnSpeed: 4 -> 6
Ammo: 6 -> 10
PipCount: 6 -> 5
SelfReloadDelay: 100 -> 90

Orca missiles:
ReloadDelay: 12 -> 5
BurstDelay: 12 -> 5
Range: 5c0 -> 3c0
Speed: 256 -> 370
None: 50 -> 40
Wood: 100 -> 80
Light: 100 -> 75
Heavy: 75 -> 60
Concrete: 100 -> 80
Light: 75 -> 40 (AA)

AoAGeneral1 · Post by **AoAGeneral1** » Wed Aug 24, 2016 5:42 am

This coming Monday (Currently 23rd of August) I will be putting in the patch for the Commando range buff.

As for the aircraft mechanics currently waiting on more feedback. I plan to tweak around with the Orcas damage a bit but need more feedback for it. Would be much appreciated.

Maps are updated to T2. Links here:

http://resource.openra.net/maps/15748/

http://resource.openra.net/maps/15748/

http://resource.openra.net/maps/15747/

For Monday:

Commando weapon range increase to 8c0 from 6c0.

Commando weapon projectile speed increase from 1c682 to 5c682.

AoAGeneral1 · Post by **AoAGeneral1** » Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:38 am

The factions are set in a good position and doing fairly well over all. There are a few problems when coming to terms of GDI vs Nod.

Currently right now there is the gap tech problem that GDI faces against Nod where it feels like you are always a step behind as GDI. Some ideas bounced between Anjew is a price change on the APC unit down to 500 instead of 600.

While keeping the build speed as it is which is 15 this will help GDI against their money problem and in the early game. APCs are a strong unit but are to costly for their worth and use in comparison to the humvee and medium tank. I will also be working on some APC gun damage ideas and firing speed.

I will also be looking at a very minor buff to the humvee to help compensate in HP. So here is the rough estimates:

APC price reduction from 600 to 500.

Humvee HP increase from 160 to 170-180.

CampinJeff · Post by **CampinJeff** » Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:01 am

I don't exactly think the tech swap between GDI and Nod is that big of a problem. AGT spam with concrete and MRLS/inf is one of the most potent defensive blocks, and is a real pain to deal with as of right now as Nod early-mid game. Early bike/buggy can be countered effectively with mass inf or hummers (already) and turret drops. If slow to tech, proper minigunner/E3 blocks with defenses can fend off Nod tanks without much hassle.

Lowering APC price I feel would make them too cost efficient in the early game and against aircraft. Along with the AA buff and the heavy armor buff vs buggys, they're going to be way too good for a price tag of 500. Not to mention they're great at crushing infantry. The humvee buff I don't see being necessary as they already do their early-game jobs very well.

anjew · Post by **anjew** » Mon Aug 29, 2016 12:13 pm

there really is a big gap between GDI getting to mid game and Nod getting to mid game. The APC price lowering will give GDI more of a chance to get to mid game (which GDI are best at). Nod is highly mobile compared to GDI and their primary early game DPS is the fastest unit in the game.

And its definitely no longer early game if ur GDI opponent gets an AGT and MLRS out, it takes ~46 seconds to build AGT and your going to get it at like 3-4 minutes at the earliest without losing eco

AoAGeneral1 · Post by **AoAGeneral1** » Mon Aug 29, 2016 5:42 pm

CampinJeff wrote: ↑I don't exactly think the tech swap between GDI and Nod is that big of a problem. AGT spam with concrete and MRLS/inf is one of the most potent defensive blocks, and is a real pain to deal with as of right now as Nod early-mid game. Early bike/buggy can be countered effectively with mass inf or hummers (already) and turret drops. If slow to tech, proper minigunner/E3 blocks with defenses can fend off Nod tanks without much hassle.

Lowering APC price I feel would make them too cost efficient in the early game and against aircraft. Along with the AA buff and the heavy armor buff vs buggys, they're going to be way too good for a price tag of 500. Not to mention they're great at crushing infantry. The humvee buff I don't see being necessary as they already do their early-game jobs very well.

The AGT and MLRS requires a com center while Nod can get both bikes and buggies with just a quick airstrip. You will not be able to get those units in time from these attacks.

I do agree about the buggy armor damage nerf but I haven't been able to test the bleed at all yet due to a problem.

The issue at hand is GDI always feels like they are behind. More a problem in 1v1 but can see this abuse coming in team games. infantry and hummers make good counters but keeping in mind that both buggies and bikes move faster are able to dodge around GDI. This also makes the problem for GDI actually pushing out of the base and on certian wide open maps this is a big potential problem.

I am skeptical at this point if this is things to be released now or wait for the playtest/next release. Im going to play around with it and see what happens.

----------------

Currently right now any future changes are going to have to wait anyways. Ive gotten some feedback that they need to wait until the next release. Anything else placed here are a collection of ideas that can be changed after release.

CampinJeff · Post by **CampinJeff** » Wed Aug 31, 2016 1:17 am

Yeah the AGT wasn't a right example but my point still stands in that GDI already has the arsenal to hold off early Nod attacks. This issue I feel is more on the map played on, not particularly game balance; like AOA mentioned Nod having more of an advantage on open maps. Chokey maps I feel are much easier for GDI, on the start and in the long run since Nod can't take advantage of their maneuverability and mid-game AGTs completely blocking off entryways.