Sam Site Discussion (RA)
Sam Site Discussion (RA)
I know there's been some hate on balance threads as of late, but I feel sam sites really deserve some kind of discussion. As of right now they are borderline useless and I see every Soviet player opt for flak truck spam, even if the enemy is heavily invested into air.
For purposes of balance, I'll be comparing it to the AA turret of the Allies. In this regard the Sam Site has three weaknesses.
1. Slow Projectile
The Sam Site fires a slow projectile that takes time to reach its target. This means an aircraft can accomplish its goal before being shot down, and sam sites can overkill.
2. Projectile Timeout
Once on target, the missile can time out like any other missile. This means an active player can usually save their aircraft, especially with yaks or migs.
3. Small Range
The Sam Site has 7.5 range (radius) compared to the AA gun's 10. This means as a static defense it actually covers very little ground, and requires multiple sam sites to simply cover a small portion of the base. A player with hinds can easily maneuver around sam sites and pick off targets of their choosing.
Of these three, I think the small range is really what kills the Sam Site. An AA defense should act as an aircraft deterrent over an area, which it really can't do with such short range. At best it can be plopped down right under aircraft and score a few kills, and then be useless until sold.
To fix this, I'd suggest a modest buff of increasing the range from 7.5 to 9. It would still be fairly weak, especially when compared to the AA gun, but it could at least see some use in special circumstances.
I know the discussion will probably derail into air balance discussion, but if we could keep it to Sam sites that'd be great.
For purposes of balance, I'll be comparing it to the AA turret of the Allies. In this regard the Sam Site has three weaknesses.
1. Slow Projectile
The Sam Site fires a slow projectile that takes time to reach its target. This means an aircraft can accomplish its goal before being shot down, and sam sites can overkill.
2. Projectile Timeout
Once on target, the missile can time out like any other missile. This means an active player can usually save their aircraft, especially with yaks or migs.
3. Small Range
The Sam Site has 7.5 range (radius) compared to the AA gun's 10. This means as a static defense it actually covers very little ground, and requires multiple sam sites to simply cover a small portion of the base. A player with hinds can easily maneuver around sam sites and pick off targets of their choosing.
Of these three, I think the small range is really what kills the Sam Site. An AA defense should act as an aircraft deterrent over an area, which it really can't do with such short range. At best it can be plopped down right under aircraft and score a few kills, and then be useless until sold.
To fix this, I'd suggest a modest buff of increasing the range from 7.5 to 9. It would still be fairly weak, especially when compared to the AA gun, but it could at least see some use in special circumstances.
I know the discussion will probably derail into air balance discussion, but if we could keep it to Sam sites that'd be great.
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The sam site vs aa gun situation is definitely awful, however I do think that if anything we should rather look into nerfing the aa gun (for example -1.5 range) instead of buffing the samsite. That would not only make the Soviets vs Allies matchup more balanced but also improve the quality of arty/hind/aa gun stalemate allies vs allies games.
Another minor source of imbalance, courtesy of Frame Limiter, is that SAM missiles get deflected by the Mobile Radar Jammer at close range.
Two of my mods have Sam sites with the same range as AA guns (10c) with faster projectiles, with an increased timeout range of 11c. My testing is currently on postponement indefinitely until RAGL is over, so my final input on this will have to wait.
I've also experimented with changing the damage to from whatever it is now to 100dmg per 70 ticks to some interesting effects.
Two of my mods have Sam sites with the same range as AA guns (10c) with faster projectiles, with an increased timeout range of 11c. My testing is currently on postponement indefinitely until RAGL is over, so my final input on this will have to wait.
I've also experimented with changing the damage to from whatever it is now to 100dmg per 70 ticks to some interesting effects.
Its worth remembering that Soviets have the flak truck, the only effective anti-air ground unit in the game, even Allies doesnt have a mobile anti-air ground unit available before Tech. Im pretty sure this is why the Soviets have the flak truck. If you make the AA gun and the SAM equal then Soviets will have an advantage against air units.
This is a bit fucked thoughOMnom wrote: ↑Another minor source of imbalance, courtesy of Frame Limiter, is that SAM missiles get deflected by the Mobile Radar Jammer at close range.
Yes they need a range buff. Did they not get one recently?
With the allies AA, I seem to remember it used to be more possible to attack artie knowing you would lose your helis but knowing you would have time to get one or two artillery pieces. They lowered the armour on the cheaper air units I think when the concern was that air was overpowered.
With the allies AA, I seem to remember it used to be more possible to attack artie knowing you would lose your helis but knowing you would have time to get one or two artillery pieces. They lowered the armour on the cheaper air units I think when the concern was that air was overpowered.
I agree with Lorrydriver about allied AA-gun being too strong. That is bigger problem than SAM-site. I think we should consider giving AA-gun some inaccuracy. I think it would be quite realistic.
Nerfing AA-guns would be indirect needed beef to Migs.
Nerfing AA-guns would be indirect needed beef to Migs.
The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.
-Sun Tzu
-Sun Tzu
This is the correct way to go. As a general rule always nerf the strong static as opposed to buffing the weak static.Lorrydriver wrote: ↑ The sam site vs aa gun situation is definitely awful, however I do think that if anything we should rather look into nerfing the aa gun (for example -1.5 range) instead of buffing the samsite. That would not only make the Soviets vs Allies matchup more balanced but also improve the quality of arty/hind/aa gun stalemate allies vs allies games.
"Do not trust the balance tzars (Smitty, Orb). They are making the changes either for the wrong reasons, for no reason at all, or just because they can and it makes them feel good." - Alex Jones
That's true. However, I think SAM sites can still be buffed without pushing Soviets into too strong of a position. That's how weak it is right now. As it stands there's no reason to build a SAM site. A small buff could push it to be usable in some circumstances. Flak trucks would still be the dominant air defense for soviets, but for example if your war factory gets sniped, you could build SAMs as a temporary defense.anjew wrote: ↑Its worth remembering that Soviets have the flak truck, the only effective anti-air ground unit in the game, even Allies doesnt have a mobile anti-air ground unit available before Tech. Im pretty sure this is why the Soviets have the flak truck. If you make the AA gun and the SAM equal then Soviets will have an advantage against air units.
As far as nerfing the AA gun I agree, however that would still leave SAM sites useless.
Last edited by Orb on Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:12 pm, edited 5 times in total.
In my experience SAM's are weak but I'll still use them and I've had opponents effectively use them against me. They're certainly not worthless.
The role of static anti-air defense isn't to destroy the enemy air force, it is to protect areas (usually tech) from air attack. If you convince someone not to attack your buildings because you placed a SAM, the SAM has done its job, even if it never got a missile off. If I mass air attack with hinds or migs vs one SAM, yeah I'll kill the target, but it won't be an effective trade.
Nerfing the AA gun is the way to go here. Anything that increases the chance to destroy arty trying to hide under an AA gun will open up the game. The main reason not to buff the SAM is so that it doesn't become an enabler for the same arty/AA gun base crawl tactic except with V2s or even telsas.
The role of static anti-air defense isn't to destroy the enemy air force, it is to protect areas (usually tech) from air attack. If you convince someone not to attack your buildings because you placed a SAM, the SAM has done its job, even if it never got a missile off. If I mass air attack with hinds or migs vs one SAM, yeah I'll kill the target, but it won't be an effective trade.
Nerfing the AA gun is the way to go here. Anything that increases the chance to destroy arty trying to hide under an AA gun will open up the game. The main reason not to buff the SAM is so that it doesn't become an enabler for the same arty/AA gun base crawl tactic except with V2s or even telsas.
"Do not trust the balance tzars (Smitty, Orb). They are making the changes either for the wrong reasons, for no reason at all, or just because they can and it makes them feel good." - Alex Jones
I agree that nerfing the AA gun is the most important thing to do. It's fine that it's stronger than the SAM site, but it's currently pretty OP for arty turtling.
That said, while the SAM Site isn't quite worthless, it doesn't justify its cost (monetary but also the opportunity cost of building tesla coils/IC/nuke/etc). Personally I'd like to see a slight range or ROF buff as well.
That said, while the SAM Site isn't quite worthless, it doesn't justify its cost (monetary but also the opportunity cost of building tesla coils/IC/nuke/etc). Personally I'd like to see a slight range or ROF buff as well.
- MustaphaTR
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I like the fact that SAMs are not so powerful. So IMO if it will be buffed i think it should be as decreasing build time and maybe cost too. So you can pop SAM Sites to unexpecting enemy Aircraft and kill them, which is a complately different strategy when compared to what Allies has.
A slight Range Buff to SAM or Range nerf to AA Gun may also be good.
I also think we should remove the stealth detection ability from static AA Defences.
A slight Range Buff to SAM or Range nerf to AA Gun may also be good.
I also think we should remove the stealth detection ability from static AA Defences.