Should we give Soviets their Hind back ?

Discussion about the game and its default mods.

Should Allies only have a (balanced) Longbow and give Soviets their Hind back ?

Poll ended at Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:51 pm

Yes
21
44%
No
23
48%
I have a different Idea
4
8%
 
Total votes: 48

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JOo
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Should we give Soviets their Hind back ?

Post by JOo »


PizzaAtomica
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Post by PizzaAtomica »

I would like to see this happen, yes.
The Hind that the Allies have now could be changed to something like the Cobra, all the stats and even the art could stay the same, just a name change.

How the Hind would behave on the Soviet side to keep it different enough from the Yak I don't know yet though (perhaps make it capable of targeting air units since that is something that the Soviet airforce is still missing)

scorp
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Post by scorp »

while it's okay to wildly switch around generic units like APC or the like for balancing purposes, the Hind is an iconic real-life soviet/russian aircraft. It really stands out as a sore thumb in the Allied build tree.

it can be made to rearm on an airstrip no problem. The only question is, what do you do with the allied side of things.

OMnom
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Post by OMnom »

I was initially surprised when the Hind was in the Allied tech tree. I don't know what the hell this guy is suggesting, but if it's just a renaming of the aircraft, then fine.

If he's suggesting to move the hinds to the Soviet tech tree, I would challenge him to go do his own balance testing for that before bringing this up again

Mortecha
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Post by Mortecha »

OMnom wrote: I was initially surprised when the Hind was in the Allied tech tree. I don't know what the hell this guy is suggesting, but if it's just a renaming of the aircraft, then fine.

If he's suggesting to move the hinds to the Soviet tech tree, I would challenge him to go do his own balance testing for that before bringing this up again
Initially it started out as a proposal to change the characteristics of the Apache to also fulfill the role that the Hind does for the Allies at the moment by giving it a chain gun as a secondary weapon. Then it changed to to exploring an alternative shp that would be more fitting for the Allies to use such as a Cobra or Huey Gunship. Then it changed to give the Soviets their Hind back and re-balance the Longbow so that balance is maintained.

Well I'm right here to be challenged. And I'd be happy to do just that:P

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Sire
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Post by Sire »

While I would like the Hind back to the Soviets for nolgastic purposes, I am far more attuned to OpenRA's version of Red Alert than the original Westwood Red Alert. Helicopters vs Planes makes sense to me for some reason, even if the Hind is supposed to be a Soviet Helicopter.

As for the Allies, I see the "Hind" getting a name change and different art to differ itself from the "proper Hind" while maintaining the current stats. Due to current gameplay and relative balancing that has taken place over time, cutting out the "Allied Hind" completely sounds like a bad idea.

As for the Soviets, I have an insane proposal. Instead of just adding the Hind to the overall Soviet arsenal, introduce a new Soviet subfaction that uses Helicopters instead of Planes. There can be different "Air Support Powers," such as instead of paradropping soldiers, a Chinook or two flies in to drop off troops. There can also be new or adjusted units to make up for this difference. Of course, the major downside is that all new art will have to be made (sprites, icons, maybe even effects) as well as presenting another variable to consider for balancing.

I personally would love to see a "Flamethrower Helicopter" because that sounds awesome, but I don't know if there is any such real world equivalent during Red Alert's time frame. Another suggestion is to repurpose the "cut character Megan" for this theoretical subfaction, acting as an alternative Soviet commando that may be more effective against vehicles and structures compared to Tanya, but "Megan" sucks against Infantry.

Then there is also this idea of mine that the Soviets should gain a new naval unit similar to RA2's Sea Scorpion (small ship with a Flak Cannon) for naval air superiority and to serve as a weak "water to land" ship before the Missile Submarine, but that is for navy balancing and is a different topic entirely.

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Smitty
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Post by Smitty »

In OpenRA's lore not only did Albert Einstein kill Time-Hitler, but Soviet aerospace engineer Mikhail Mil became angry with Stalin for being a big meanie, and defected to the Allies with the designs for the Hind.

All you have to do is write ‘Why do Allies have the Hind? It is a Soviet weapon!’ in the FAQ section and attach the above text.

Boom, problem solved.

Red Alert is a world with time-travel, tesla death-rays and a crazy lady who out-ranges and massacres riflemen with dual .45s. ‘But this is how it works in the real world’ is a poor reason to change anything in this game.

As giving the Soviets the Hind would severely change game balance, and because I feel airpower is in a good and stable place, I oppose this idea.

camundahl
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Post by camundahl »

Smitty wrote: In OpenRA's lore not only did Albert Einstein kill Time-Hitler, but Soviet aerospace engineer Mikhail Mil became angry with Stalin for being a big meanie, and defected to the Allies with the designs for the Hind.

All you have to do is write ‘Why do Allies have the Hind? It is a Soviet weapon!’ in the FAQ section and attach the above text.

Boom, problem solved.

Red Alert is a world with time-travel, tesla death-rays and a crazy lady who out-ranges and massacres riflemen with dual .45s. ‘But this is how it works in the real world’ is a poor reason to change anything in this game.

As giving the Soviets the Hind would severely change game balance, and because I feel airpower is in a good and stable place, I oppose this idea.
Well said Smitty.

I found it odd that Allies had Hind as well, until I read this lol.

OMnom
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Post by OMnom »

Mortecha wrote:
OMnom wrote: I was initially surprised when the Hind was in the Allied tech tree. I don't know what the hell this guy is suggesting, but if it's just a renaming of the aircraft, then fine.

If he's suggesting to move the hinds to the Soviet tech tree, I would challenge him to go do his own balance testing for that before bringing this up again
Initially it started out as a proposal to change the characteristics of the Apache to also fulfill the role that the Hind does for the Allies at the moment by giving it a chain gun as a secondary weapon. Then it changed to to exploring an alternative shp that would be more fitting for the Allies to use such as a Cobra or Huey Gunship. Then it changed to give the Soviets their Hind back and re-balance the Longbow so that balance is maintained.

Well I'm right here to be challenged. And I'd be happy to do just that:P
In that case, I'd be willing to help you test your idea out. However, in the meantime, I strongly urge you to take this poll down. There is no hard evidence supporting or disproving your proposed change, and yet people are still voting yes and no? This idea is way too young for anyone to be voting on its viability. All it's serving to do right now is to sway people into demanding a change that may sway the balance of the game dramatically.

Mortecha
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Post by Mortecha »

OMnom wrote: In that case, I'd be willing to help you test your idea out. However, in the meantime, I strongly urge you to take this poll down. There is no hard evidence supporting or disproving your proposed change, and yet people are still voting yes and no? This idea is way too young for anyone to be voting on its viability. All it's serving to do right now is to sway people into demanding a change that may sway the balance of the game dramatically.
Help with play testing would be great:) I don't see a need for taking the poll down since it is showing the general views that people have regarding this, as well as some further elaborated views as well, so think it should stay up as removing it in a way suppresses the ability for someone to share their views and have their say.

Just because there's a poll up showing people's views and opinions, does not dictate implementation of balance. So there is definitely no need to feel threatened by it.

In order to maintain balance a small number of changes to characteristics regarding these two vehicles will need to take place, which is normal. Also this process takes time with small iterative adjustments as time goes on, this is also normal.

I think you will find that the changes will not be as drastic as you currently think.

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Fortnight
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Post by Fortnight »

On the contrary to finding it odd that Allies can build Hind I found it odd that the Soviet could build Hinds in the original Red Alert. I didn't know about the name, just saw that Soviet got more air units. Personally I think it's nice and orderly that the Allied arsenal has all helicopters while the Soviet has all planes.

Giving the Longbow both chaingun and missiles gives it all-around capabilities, which reduces strategy a little. There would be less "weak against, strong against" reasoning and you don't really need to think about which air unit to produce.

IRL "Mil Mi-24" Hinds are Soviet but Red Alert is an alternative universe and a name is fixable simply by renaming. I haven't really reflected on the name before to be honest.

Giving a unit two bars for ammunition with specific target requirements doesn't work in the current engine (unless they automatically reload by themselves over time). I tried doing it in overhaul for Migs and when they have emptied one type of ammunition they end up just chasing the target forever, unable to attack it, instead of going back to reload (I tried having one ammo pool for air-to-air and the other for air-to-surface). If I remember correctly it was the same if I attacked a building, after one pool was empty it would keep passing over the structure forever without doing anything.

Mortecha
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Post by Mortecha »

Fortnight wrote: On the contrary to finding it odd that Allies can build Hind I found it odd that the Soviet could build Hinds in the original Red Alert. I didn't know about the name, just saw that Soviet got more air units. Personally I think it's nice and orderly that the Allied arsenal has all helicopters while the Soviet has all planes.

Giving the Longbow both chaingun and missiles gives it all-around capabilities, which reduces strategy a little. There would be less "weak against, strong against" reasoning and you don't really need to think about which air unit to produce.

IRL "Mil Mi-24" Hinds are Soviet but Red Alert is an alternative universe and a name is fixable simply by renaming. I haven't really reflected on the name before to be honest.

Giving a unit two bars for ammunition with specific target requirements doesn't work in the current engine (unless they automatically reload by themselves over time). I tried doing it in overhaul for Migs and when they have emptied one type of ammunition they end up just chasing the target forever, unable to attack it, instead of going back to reload (I tried having one ammo pool for air-to-air and the other for air-to-surface). If I remember correctly it was the same if I attacked a building, after one pool was empty it would keep passing over the structure forever without doing anything.
The Longbow armed with the chain gun as a secondary weapon was the initial proposal. But not the result of further discussion throughout the issue. The end result would be the return of the Hind to the Soviets and re-balance the Longbow with the final result being balanced air units with minimal impact to the game balance as a whole.

As for finding it weird that the Soviets have the Hind. The Hind is an iconic Soviet aircraft that is quintessentially Russian. I would say as much as the AK-47.

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JOo
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Post by JOo »

OMnom wrote: In that case, I'd be willing to help you test your idea out. However, in the meantime, I strongly urge you to take this poll down. There is no hard evidence supporting or disproving your proposed change, and yet people are still voting yes and no? This idea is way too young for anyone to be voting on its viability. All it's serving to do right now is to sway people into demanding a change that may sway the balance of the game dramatically.
nothing to worry, once there is actually a concept and a pull-request then it has to get passed the github-approval where this poll just shows the actually interest of the community that the hind is on soviets side ...

a actually PR that is balanced enough to get into a playtest, that is a different beer i would say and will get decided on github by the actually reviewers of the PR

what i mean by that is , theres no way that such a change is getting in "uncooked"

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MustaphaTR
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Post by MustaphaTR »

I still think we should just rename it, possiby to Huey and don't tough anything else.

I don't think Soviets using chinook is much of a problem. It has a wide user range irl. I wouldn't be surprised if soviets found one at somewhere, but they can't build their own, so i don't see a problem.

Or instead we can make Hind Soviet transport heli in missions.

scorp
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Post by scorp »

Fortnight wrote:
IRL "Mil Mi-24" Hinds are Soviet but Red Alert is an alternative universe and a name is fixable simply by renaming. I haven't really reflected on the name before to be honest.
.
true, but the original RA got it right initially, why change it for the wrong in OpenRA? it feels like a step backwards, even if it helps balancing.

I understand people's concerns about not changing current air force balancing in OpenRA because they're used ot it, but if we look at it from a game design perspective, im not convinced:

Longbow, as the most advanced Heli in the game, appears underused, overpriced ineffective for most combat purposes. The Mig, most advanced plane in the game, appears underused overpriced, ineffective for most combat purposes. The Yak, WW2 era plane is mass used as a scout, as a bomber, as a suicide dive bomb. The Hind, a multi-purpose gunship is used as Scout, infantry mauler, arty sniper and makeshift bomber against undefended or weak buildings.

Air force balancing between the several original RA units thus appears at the least slightly lacking. Giving it an overhaul that also fixes wrong lore would be desirable from that perspective.

*in an ideal Scenario, the Hind on soviet side gets a small infantry carrying capacity and the Chinook is changed so that it could take up some of the purposes the Hind is currently used for on the allied side. Only downside to that is that *landwhenidle* is a bit clunky to use. Is it just my Impression that helidrops (except tanya of course) are rarely used in games?
And Longbow/Mig should be overall a bit more useful, too.

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