Debate about OpenRA vs classic RA

Discussion about the game and its default mods.
lucassss
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Debate about OpenRA vs classic RA

Post by lucassss »

I am currently debating with someone over the balance of OpenRA. Curious to know what you think about his claims
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SoScared
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Post by SoScared »

Well first off this guy is strongly opinionated beyond experience so don't try to win the argument. I fall into this trap on a regular basis :D

There's a few points you could get across tho:

Sure it would be nice to have a 'classic mode', why not. The original multiplayer can be fun! However in terms of multiplayer it churns out primitive matches and eliminate the usefulness of the majority of the factions' assets (self-evident - watch original RA matches online). Also, TD and RA1 was never built for a multiplayer scene.

The more experienced a player is with OpenRA the more they fare well with both factions, and will even have a bias towards Soviet because of it's aggressive strengths (self-evident among experienced players, youtube is your friend). Allies are preferred for newcomers because of the better ability to turtle and play it safe. Also, players using no more than 3 unit types in OpenRA never get far on multiplayer.

Fog-of-war is a problem if you only build 3 unit types :D

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JOo
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Post by JOo »

if you would play the classic RA again ... you would become bored ... as it is really just tanks vs tanks and nothing else

the people who play OpenRA know exactly why they have chosen OpenRA ... because its better and suits 2010's gaming

this whole "oh the classic is the real game and youre not playing the original" is just a joke for me ...

think about that way , even if OpenRA isnt close to the original ... hell even if we had a different name .. that wouldnt change the fact that we are playing on a really awesome RTS-Engine , "way" better then Westwoods Classics

so , all those self announced "old school farts" are most likely just jealous and thats it

there is nothing to discuss imo , as for me "OpenRA" means "Command and Conquer - Tiberian Dawn - Red Alert and Dune2000"

Mackus
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Post by Mackus »

While I generally love old games, and prefer them to many new titles, OpenRA is simply an excellent adaptation of the classic.
And any issues I might have with it are easily solved by very good moddability.

klaas
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Post by klaas »

I think the originals were good becuase of the campaign and the artwork. Multiplayer lacks the balance and options of modern RTS. OpenRA lacks the campaign, but the multiplayer is great, and it comes with the original clear artwork which I really appriciate. I never get it why want a "vanilla" RA in OpenRA, because the vanilla is worse in multiplayer, and already excist (CnC.net, which is awesome btw.)

Matt
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Post by Matt »

SoScared wrote: Sure it would be nice to have a 'classic mode', why not.
We created a classic-ra mod once with unsatisfying results. There is also http://redalertpp.org/ in production now so I doubt we need any of that. Anyone is free to create own classic mods though of course. Some people at PPM claim to have already done that, but never published anything.

Mackus
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Post by Mackus »

As far as I care, the only reason to play the originals is for the campaigns.
Which is admittingly pretty good reason, but for now I am happy to play campaign missions as they are being reintroduced in OpenRA.

Minotaur
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Post by Minotaur »

You should have provided classic rules as an tickable option for each mod, alienating how the game is played whilst using only it's graphics causes an negative reaction, it's kinda like how there can be dildo-stores named starbucks in china, yeah ok but we all know what an Starbucks is. Its not fun to be greeted by familiar graphics but an balance you dont know jackshit about, and has nothing to with what you knew about RA throughout all those years.

I understand its around for over an decade and ofcourse there is so much room for improvement, but you dont drip an ancient column in beton just to have modernized it.

You could have provided each game as is with this engine + your iterations of it as your own official seperate mods and everyone would be happy, after all everyone mods C&C to his heart's content, but i dont have seen anybody else than you guys force their version upon others as THE continuum.

Well, and thats my opinion, peace.

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Sleipnir
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Post by Sleipnir »

Minotaur wrote: You could have provided each game as is with this engine + your iterations of it as your own official seperate mods and everyone would be happy
The developers would not be happy, because this would require many tens or hundreds of hours work for something which people would still complain about. I'm sure they would prefer to spend that time doing other things.

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jaZz_KCS
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Post by jaZz_KCS »

There are already at least a handful of projects/on-going projects on the web that have it as their mission to stay true to the orignial balancing as well as all them nice original bugs that ppl crave for apparently. This is not that type of project. It would just take the devs hundreds of hours of work to have a sidebranch done that will need at least as much care as the main one, and - as Sleipnir already correctly stated - ppl would still be complaining.

Minotaur
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Post by Minotaur »

I couldnt care less about bugs, the balance of C&C95 and RA is damaged with your supposed tweaks.

when you need Stealth Tanks to beat Mammoths, or Mammoth has vulnerability to flame, or both factions have an equal chance of engineer rush with 5 slots transport for infantry available to both, then people expect to see that shit and not some other way.
Mammoth is supposed to get unlocked with Repair Bay because otherwise GDI player is forced into the defensive until end game, which is the way you did it.
when refinery did cost 1500 for over an decade i expect to see it stay like that and not suddenly jacked to 1800 because someone decided it to be so.
The entire tech-tree has been fiddled around and i cant say that i can see the reason for most of what of the damage that has been done.

Its design intentional that Soviets did not get an mobile AA vehicle, the developers didnt forget about adding one in or something. Its also intentional that the Spy is available to Allied players, not only GB.

Helicopters that re-arm in the air without returning to helipad functions well in Generals but that doesnt mean its going to function here, because in contrast we dont have fighter jets that can shoot down air, which is the reason it has been made that way in that game.
In the original the airstrike is far from being an death sentence, here its almost as good as an secondary nuke and the most overpowered thing i have ever seen in any C&C mod.

permanently turned on Killbounty helps only the winner to win better, it doesnt help the losing side at all. This should have been an tickbox enabled mutator and not forced.

The only change i can agree here with is the tweak to Ion Cannon as it was shit compared to Nuke.

penev
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Post by penev »

Minotaur wrote: the balance of C&C95 and RA is damaged with your supposed tweaks.
Did you just use "RA" and "balance" in the same sentence? :o0: :lol:
Minotaur wrote: I couldnt care less about bugs
That's what people say when there aren't any bugs. Try a version that has some and I bet you'll be among the first bitching about them.

Also the attitude is quite unnecessary, thanks.

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Sleipnir
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Post by Sleipnir »

Minotaur wrote: The entire tech-tree has been fiddled around and i cant say that i can see the reason for most of what of the damage that has been done.
From the way you've presented yourself so far it seems that you cant see the reason because you've put the original game balance on an untouchable pedestal, and aren't willing to even consider that the changes were done for a reason.

We get that some people want the classic gameplay with all of their warts, and there is another project (cncnet) that caters to that. The OpenRA project has two main goals, and one of them is to provide modernized versions of RA and TD that incorporate the lessons learned over the last 20 years, with wider and more interesting gameplay and spectating options. Just compare https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfF-sjL-cFo with https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBipCql3mc0. If you prefer the first, then OpenRA is not for you (and that's fine! we're not forcing you to play the RA or TD mods).

The OpenRA community is generally open to balance discussion, but when somebody new shows up demanding the balance to be reset to the original games with no logic except for "because its not what I remember, and that offends me" it just makes you look like a jerk, and the most polite response you can expect is a suggestion to go away and play the originals on cncnet. If you want to have a productive discussion, and maybe help steer the balance of the mods closer to the original games then I recommend that you ask questions like "why was X changed to Y?" and be receptive to the response (i.e. actually have a discussion), instead of ranting that any change away from what you remember is bad.

abcdefg30
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Post by abcdefg30 »

By the way:
Minotaur wrote: Its also intentional that the Spy is available to Allied players, not only GB.
Every allied player has access to spies in the current release (and that wasn't different in the previous release too).
The "British Spy" is just cheaper than the normal spy.

Edit:
Minotaur wrote: Helicopters that re-arm in the air without returning to helipad functions well in Generals but that doesnt mean its going to function here, because in contrast we dont have fighter jets that can shoot down air, which is the reason it has been made that way in that game.
Actually, the airborne units in our TD mod have anti-air capabilities (which is what you were asking for?).

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AoAGeneral1
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Post by AoAGeneral1 »

Minotaur wrote: I couldnt care less about bugs, the balance of C&C95 and RA is damaged with your supposed tweaks.
Its not damaged. It actually has increased gameplay value and thought process.
Minotaur wrote: when you need Stealth Tanks to beat Mammoths, or Mammoth has vulnerability to flame, or both factions have an equal chance of engineer rush with 5 slots transport for infantry available to both, then people expect to see that shit and not some other way.
Mammoth is supposed to get unlocked with Repair Bay because otherwise GDI player is forced into the defensive until end game, which is the way you did it.
No it was not. GDI Mammoth tanks were beyond broken and OP in the original TD. They destroyed everything when you let them get that far. It was also extremely hard for Nod to stop them because of this issue. In ORA it actually fixed this problem and allowed Nod more options to stop said Mammoth tanks. They also are not weakened to flame units so im not sure where you got this from.
Minotaur wrote: when refinery did cost 1500 for over an decade i expect to see it stay like that and not suddenly jacked to 1800 because someone decided it to be so.
The entire tech-tree has been fiddled around and i cant say that i can see the reason for most of what of the damage that has been done.
Its not 1800 its still 1500. C&C95 costed 2000.
Minotaur wrote: Its design intentional that Soviets did not get an mobile AA vehicle, the developers didnt forget about adding one in or something. Its also intentional that the Spy is available to Allied players, not only GB.
I don't have enough knowledge in RA.
Minotaur wrote: Helicopters that re-arm in the air without returning to helipad functions well in Generals but that doesnt mean its going to function here, because in contrast we dont have fighter jets that can shoot down air, which is the reason it has been made that way in that game.
In the original the airstrike is far from being an death sentence, here its almost as good as an secondary nuke and the most overpowered thing i have ever seen in any C&C mod.
Unless it comes in from a far distance location then it becomes next to worthless. As for air units they already can shoot other air units and requires a lot of movement for them to be effective. Its also good to know air units in TD Couldn't scout for anything and had to be sent blindly into the dark.
Minotaur wrote: permanently turned on Killbounty helps only the winner to win better, it doesnt help the losing side at all. This should have been an tickbox enabled mutator and not forced.
I don't have the knowledge to debate this in RA.
Minotaur wrote: The only change i can agree here with is the tweak to Ion Cannon as it was shit compared to Nuke.
Pretty much yep. And that the nuke was way to strong in the original too. Atleast in the ORA version you can salvage your Construction yard by moving it. Once its deployed in C&C95 that is it. You can't move it again and dies in one shot from a nuke along with everything else around it.

Other key notes you forget about:

Both GDI and Nod got commandos when Nod already had chem warriors. Both sides also had the GDI APC units which didn't make to much sense and caused other issues.
Last edited by AoAGeneral1 on Wed Mar 02, 2016 2:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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