Red Alert Global League: Season 12 - Post Season Discussion

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TTTPPP
Posts: 170
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:25 pm

Red Alert Global League: Season 12 - Post Season Discussion

Post by TTTPPP »

Now that Season 12 has finished it's time to collect feedback on how things went. Feel free to post your feedback below and I'll also try to gather feedback from the various Discord channels.

TTTPPP
Posts: 170
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:25 pm

Re: Red Alert Global League: Season 12 - Post Season Discussion

Post by TTTPPP »

From the Competitive Discord #feedback channel:
ilikemen wrote: I enjoyed the season as a viewer, but and you know this was coming, I think it would have been nice to have playoffs for minions. Minions was really exciting this season so would have been a great way to end it. I'd also like to chime in on the whole RAGL ladder ranking debate that we had before the season really started (I also read your post on the forum) and I think while it is good to have some sort of objective criteria to lean on, there also has to be some subjectivity. Despro is probably a good example in this context as he barely made it into masters this season, but just to take it even further. Imagine if despro had not played ladder at all (or there wasn't anyone to play) - I am aware you want to implement other tournaments into the rankings as well, but that means we end up relying on not only someone to host a tournament but also on the players being able to make it - then despro would have been put into minions (or potentially even recruits). So I think it's good to have the RAGL rankings to lean on, but sometimes it is pretty obvious where a player belongs skillwise even if the ranking does not support it
.won wrote: sure I would agree with that, but there is always 2 sides, people complain that person got into masters, please complain person didn t get into masters.
I just know we(mostly tpppp) does his best to place players in the correct spot, we all want the best match ups possible
Duke Bones wrote: I had a great season. I thought the minions division was very solid and I had a lot of fun
Unano wrote: Yep good fun tourny. Not quite the skill ceiling in masters of other seasons other than Despro and Blackened but very enjoyable and fun to follow all divisions
Blackened wrote: I dont think other than playoffs for every division that this season could have go any better mechanically wise.
I feel ragl as a whole is pretty solidified. Any problems that exists are just inherent in the system. (Imbalance at top and bottom of divisons, seeding, etc)
Mees wrote: Enjoyed this season as a recruit. Looking forward to enter minions next season!

TTTPPP
Posts: 170
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:25 pm

Re: Red Alert Global League: Season 12 - Post Season Discussion

Post by TTTPPP »

From the Competitive Discord #feedback channel on the subject of promotion and relegation:
mo wrote: I would say the divisions need to have 2 promotion and relegation slots.
1 is just way too slow.
Even in football with 20 teams they have 3 relegation spots. And League 1 with 24 teams have 2 relegation spots. I reckon a rule of 1 relegation spot per 5 players in a division (rounded to nearest 5) is a possible good approach moving forward to spice things up
anjew wrote: The irony is that those slots are technically moot, RAGL admins have the power (and have used that power for X seasons in a row) to place people wherever they want
Pun wrote: Yeah, and that's why it's best to have 1 promotion spot
More would inevitably get promoted, and admins would have more control over who
Unano wrote: Trouble is then if you "force promote" someone you may have to "force demote" someone who feels they technically should have stayed up. Don't think there's an easy answer. One thing I like about the current way though is that masters level players don't have to play 2 or more seasons to get to play vs similar skill players in ragl. Although the old "Path of the hidden master" reduced that a bit, it didn't mix the soup enough sometimes i felt. It did make it more of a prestige to be in masters though - having fought your way up
Pun wrote: Sure, problem is that to become a top player you don't need a year. A few months suffise and by the time next ragl comes up you may have already stopped playing or just lose interest in it
TTTPPP wrote: The promotion/relegation doesn't really work the same as a professional sports league. There are way too many dropouts and "new" great players. I've written about this at length in this post: viewtopic.php?f=85&t=21615
This season three players went up to Masters from Minions (Gacius, Eugenator and Unano). Kaution would have gone up too, as would Nah (due to the high number of dropouts in Masters) but both decided against returning
The existing rules [going into Season 12] had "30% of players in a division" as the rule
Mees wrote: Lorrydriver needed to start in recruits and take the path of the hidden master to bypass minions. I kind of like this idea because it rewards loyalty of returning players. But i feel despro in recruits would have been very out of place. Im not against directly promoting despro to masters at all, but the weight of previous ragl seasons should be heavier than ladder ranking
happy wrote: Recruits/minions getting stomped a superior player climbing the league to masters was pretty much every season till recent
anjew wrote:
Unano wrote:One thing I like about the current way though is that masters level players don't have to play 2 or more seasons to get to play vs similar skill players in ragl.
I really dont see the issue in needing to win at a lower level to proceed to the next level (like any normal standard player who also plays the league), if I was in a lower league, i would be much more disheartened by someone getting a free ride up the circle jerk ladder vs having to play a hard match but thats just me
Pun wrote:problem is that to become a top player you don't need a year. A few months suffise and by the time next ragl comes up you may have already stopped playing or just lose interest in it
Or they win RAGL twice and quit the game, literally what has happened to every single winner of RAGL except 5a and despro
Mees wrote:Lorrydriver needed to start in recruits and take the path of the hidden master to bypass minions. I kind of like this idea because it rewards loyalty of returning players. But i feel despro in recruits would have been very out of place. Im not against directly promoting despro to masters at all, but the weight of previous ragl seasons should be heavier than ladder ranking
And this is why we are in the position we are today with this conversation. People see the benefit of both sides but for some reason dont realise that there is no compromise to be had. Attempting to straddle the line between these two positions may give the benefits of both but it also comes with the downsides of both. At least with the previous setup, we got more than 2 seasons out of winners. People want fun but they want competitive. You can't have your cake and eat it too
Unano wrote:It did make it more of a prestige to be in masters though - having fought your way up
Personally I think this might work better for player retention than coddling players at lower divisions. Maybe some people wouldnt SF (or just leave at the end of the season) if they knew they had to play recruits/minions again to get back to Masters.

this has been discussed and argued for 3 years now
There was then some discussion that "win ragl twice and quit the game" wasn't completely correct.
Pun wrote: I feel like to get to the top in many other popular competitive games takes more than a year
While in openra is just seems fairly easy
ilikemen wrote: You are certainly not wrong. Getting to the top here usually does not take very long especially not for the more experienced rts players

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Nilhall
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Re: Red Alert Global League: Season 12 - Post Season Discussion

Post by Nilhall »

It's one of the greatest season I have ever played since S8! (the other is S9)
Although I have lost all most all the games and shall be demoted next season, I still enjoyed S12 a lot. The matches are fun, and what's more, we have interesting maps! The only thing disappoints me is that I haven't build enough demo trucks...
Well, it might be better if there could be an RAGL Asia server. Just a wish, not a suggestion, and I know it almost won't come true :)
Translating OpenRA Into Chinese...

Jur
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Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:36 pm

Re: Red Alert Global League: Season 12 - Post Season Discussion

Post by Jur »

Season finisher prize should go to minions and recruits winner. :P
Thanks again to all the people who organized the league.

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