Red Alert Global League: Season 11 - Post Season Discussion

Feedback following RAGL S11

Announcements and discussion about community-run events.
TTTPPP
Posts: 170
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:25 pm

Red Alert Global League: Season 11 - Post Season Discussion

Post by TTTPPP »

Season 11 is not quite over, but since there's only one match left then I thought it would be a good time to collect some feedback. Obviously you can give thoughts about whatever you want, but here are some topics to:
  • Registrations
  • Formation of divisions
  • Balance
  • Map pool
  • RAGL website (ragl.org)
  • Match schedule
  • Season forfeits
  • Coverage
There has also been a lot of feedback given via Discord, so I'll try to record some of that below too.

TTTPPP
Posts: 170
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:25 pm

Re: Red Alert Global League: Season 11 - Post Season Discussion

Post by TTTPPP »

Feedback about potentially reintroducing Recruits from the Minions Bravo Discord channel:
DVoid wrote: i think a recruits division is something that should always be included in ragl seasons because of the skill level of some minions players some new players would have not chance of even putting up a fight so there is little incentive for fresh players to join as they would just get smashed and have it recorded for all to laugh at. i know it comes down to having enough players or not before you can have extra groups but perhaps having a small recruit league for any minions that volunteer to be in recruits would be an option and for new players. i was in terrible form for most of ragl and there are a few players that did a lot worse than i did so a recruit league should have been made just for the few weaker players that were at one end of the massive skill gap and it may have encouraged new players to join as well. the recruit league could even be different like having a different schedule for example to take in to account the inexperience of the recruits or whatever. if there were only a few recruits they could fight their game over a few nights perhaps just to ngive new players experience in tournament setting and give them confidence to enter at minion level next time which may boost ragl player numbers and allow recruit leagues to be included because the ground work was done the previous season to build a recruit player base.
Ekanim wrote: Recruits is a good idea on paper. I think it would have worked out better last season than this season though. Minions B at least was surprisingly balanced. And by the looks of it, minions A looks reasonably balanced too.
Guycius wrote: I dont think Minions A are balanced
there is huge gap in winrates
Kaution: 100%
DerE: 91%
Mo: 57%
It was obvious from the start that those two will decimate group A
the Recruits should be added
tttppp wrote: Moods was meant to be in the top three too - it wasn't greatly unbalanced
Splitting into Minions/Recruits should produce more close matches though
If we'd done it this time around then Nah would have been in Recruits though. I think the split would have looked something like:

Code: Select all

Minions
 68, Ekanim          , 1211, 121,  47
 73, Mo              , 1184,  87,  35
 36, Eugenator       , 1403, 275, 158
 61, TiTo            , 1229, 467, 150
 94, Duke Bones      , 1093,  80,  34
 64, Kaution         , 1224, 159,  43

 49, maceman         , 1289, 207, 104
 63, ROCKhardFISTnips, 1224,  48,  24
 66, Gajcus          , 1218,  21,  17
 69, Dodder          , 1207, 192,  73


Recruits
132, TTTPPP          ,  949,  80,  26
173, Nilhall         ,  784,  64,  16
201, MR C            ,  707, 110,  10

 89, DVoid           , 1115,  24,  14
136, worldpeace      ,  918,  50,  11
142, manta151        ,  879,   2,   2
164, Tailix Killa Men,  800, 111,  24
227, Therapist       ,  610,   4,   1
299, potato          ,  452,  47,   6
(Each division split into returning players at the top and 'new' players at the bottom)

TTTPPP
Posts: 170
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:25 pm

Re: Red Alert Global League: Season 11 - Post Season Discussion

Post by TTTPPP »

From the Competitive server feedback channel:
goat wrote: i talked with .1 a bit about this too and said id bring it up here again, but we have had talks about this in previous seasons as well: please dont let the same map be played twice in a row in a groupstage game, it adds nothing and is boring in my opinion

overall the map pool was great, although it is a shame to see some maps which only purpose really is to be banned, not sure how to best deal with this though

this season really reinforced my belief that it is much better to have a schedule, pacing overall was really good

TTTPPP
Posts: 170
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:25 pm

Re: Red Alert Global League: Season 11 - Post Season Discussion

Post by TTTPPP »

From the Official Discord ragl channel:
netnazgul wrote: seeing as @upps and @Pinkthoth banned maps in their playoff series (which is not explicitly required and is a kind of gray area), I thought maybe map pick for the playoffs can evolve further?
i.e. picking the whole mapset before the match. Or after the first game, to have the losing player start the pick first. Dunno about the bans in Playoffs though, I think bye the time Playoffs are reached, all maps should be viable to play, and there is also a predefined first map which may be not to liking of either player.
so the proposal is:
1. Players play the predefined map.
2. Player that has lost picks map 2 and 4.
3. Player that has won picks map 3 and 5.

No bans and no repetitions allowed.

another wild idea for whatever reason - as people are excited about playoffs more, what if 6 people instead of 4 enter playoffs? First stage is 3-6 and 4-5, then winners of those play against 1 and 2.
SinJul wrote: Regarding map picks in play-offs:
First map is set, then make players ban maps until only 4 maps remain in case of a BO5. Players can then pick a map from that pool once.
Guycius wrote: first ban, then pick maybe?
ban, pick, ban, pick? just like that
From the Competitive Discord:
mo wrote: I have a suggestion for the map selection process that I've been made aware of by friends for when choosing places to go or restaurants to visit.
It's the 5-3-1 rule. In essence, the first person picks out 5, the second person picks 3 of the options from that 5, and then the 1st person picks out 1 from those 3.

I don't know if this would help solve the same maps getting banned problem or not. Maybe it makes it worse because a person in essence could ban 2 maps that a person might want to pick. Or maybe not. But what are your thoughts on it? Just throwing it out there as an option I've come across.
Last edited by TTTPPP on Wed Dec 22, 2021 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TTTPPP
Posts: 170
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:25 pm

Re: Red Alert Global League: Season 11 - Post Season Discussion

Post by TTTPPP »

From a private discussion on Discord - it would be good to make the rules clearer about how the prize pool will be split. In particular it would be good to explain:
  • What might cause a particular prize not to be awarded (e.g. a small prize pool might mean the season finishers prize is removed)
  • Why the prizes aren't exactly the percentages given (e.g. prizes might be plus or minus a few dollars so that they all make round numbers)
  • The percentages apply after the mapmaker prize is removed from the prize pool (otherwise the total in the rules adds up to 100% + $50).

TTTPPP
Posts: 170
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:25 pm

Re: Red Alert Global League: Season 11 - Post Season Discussion

Post by TTTPPP »

A couple of people thought we could improve the RAGL site to provide an easier way to download spoiler-free replays. In case anyone is interested in working on this then the source code is available here: https://github.com/ubitux/oraladder I would quite like a way to automatically pad replay packs for the Playoffs, so that we don't know which game will be the last one of a match.

MR C
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:40 pm

Re: Red Alert Global League: Season 11 - Post Season Discussion

Post by MR C »

You allowed transparent ladder to influence league selections also. Allowing Kav into masters. Making gajcius a 3rd seed in minions( viewtopic.php?p=313439#p313439 (added link thanks tttppp))based on latest information.  Ranked all players to split leagues by transparently rating all players to make even leagues.

I thought you did a great job TTTPPP and rest of admins. Keeping people to time etc. (viewtopic.php?f=85&t=2151) also with your weekly summaries.(viewtopic.php?f=85&t=21516) Having only 4 drop from 33 players is impressive.(3of which many expected to drop anyway after losing or knowing inside  wouldn't win whole thing) All I played were interested to play.You kept schedule marked up with latest information of who had arranged games. 

Would be good like Yara says to publicise more. 1st idea? if a link could go straight to a page of any game just played (like GitHub stuff does) without score with download link of both games after every game is played maybe if that could be done automatically then people wouldn't know scores before games so might be more keen to watch just after game had happened. 

Or 2ndly if bug was able to change the latest game tab to display just said 2players names with no result shown. Then on3rd column which was hidden, could just say winners name if you chose to click it. Would make watching replays more enjoyable.

Would agree 10 in a group is a nice number for minions not too many games a season. If you wanted 2levels of minions and had enough players that's fine too but normally don't.  Maybe minions final should be bO5 too not bO3. Don't allow same map pick. Think banning one map is ok. It's a skill picking one to ban.

Personally playing each week was good having a schedule keeps competition exciting. Two games every second week is about max you would want I'd say.

It's Masters that are going to have issue with signups next year. You might need to tier that as well as minions if that was chosen to be best. As there are lots of high ranked players that didn't play this year. Looking at your registration rankings. You could easy end up with 25 worthy players for masters.

User avatar
Nilhall
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:14 pm
Location: Shanghai,China
Contact:

Re: Red Alert Global League: Season 11 - Post Season Discussion

Post by Nilhall »

Maps b/p could be something like champions b/p in League of Legends or DotA2.
I have upgrade the one we using now for RAGL, but only for playoff stage games, as group stage games are bo2.
For example in bo5 between Player A and Player B, and we suppose Player A has the higher posion when finishing group stage than Player B:
1. First map is set;
2. Play game 1;
3. Player A bans TWO remaining maps;
4. Player B picks ONE map for game 2;
5. Play game 2;
5.1 If it's 1-1 after game 2, see #16.
6. Player WHO IS AHEAD bans TWO remaining maps;
7. Player WHO IS BEHIND picks ONE map for game 3;
8. Play game 3;
9. If there would be a game 4, then the Player WHO IS AHEAD bans TWO remaining maps;
10. Player WHO IS BEHIND picks ONE map for game 4;
PS: I have no idea which is stronger, ban maps or pick maps; I guess when the remaining maps go less and less, ban should be more powerful than pick. if so then step 9 and 10 might switch their position, game 4 should pick the map first and then ban 2 maps (for game 5 if there would be),
or player behind bans 2 maps and player ahead picks the map for game 4
11. Play game 4;
12. If there would be a game 5, then Player A bans ONE map;
13. Player B bans ONE map;
13.1: The order of who bans first maybe changed because of the number of the remaining maps is even or odd, to make sure that it's always the Player WHO WON GAME 4 is the one deciding which map to be played in game 5;
14. Repeating Step 14 and 15, until there is only one map remaining, then play on this map.
14.1 Players have to ban the map during the bp stage of game 5;
14.2 Having no ban is not allowed during that stage, but it's allowed from game 2 to game 4;
14.3 All maps that haven't been banned or played are for game 5 and each map have to be either played or banned after the series finished if there's a game 5.
15. It works when there are 13 or above maps in the whole map pool; If the maps are less than 13, Players should ban ONE map instead of TWO maps before game 4, and if there's still not enough maps, game 3 should only have one map banned.
16. If it's 1-1 when game 2 finished, Player B will ban two maps and Player A will then pick the map for game 3.
Translating OpenRA Into Chinese...

TTTPPP
Posts: 170
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:25 pm

Re: Red Alert Global League: Season 11 - Post Season Discussion

Post by TTTPPP »

From Competitive Discord Feedback channel:
SinJul wrote: RAGL Masters ran well. Was difficult to play against a few players but it's to be expected with the different time zones.

Would like to have more experimental balance changes during RAGL to shake things up a bit.
Or more experimental maps. Question would be how not to get those banned.

Otherwise can't complain. Think the format is fine as is, just power levels between players are very uneven right now and you kinda know who's gonna place top 3 just looking at the player list.

User avatar
netnazgul
Posts: 507
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:32 am
Location: Minsk
Contact:

Re: Red Alert Global League: Season 11 - Post Season Discussion

Post by netnazgul »

SinJul wrote: power levels between players are very uneven right now and you kinda know who's gonna place top 3 just looking at the player list.
Well that is not for a league format to fix, otherwise it won't be strongest player to get into Playoffs which actually should always be the case for RAGL.

I second the motion for more experimental maps, though this opinion is in a minority as I couldn't translate this idea over the past seasons. Goremented even called Spearhead too experimental and that it should be removed from the pool.

I don't really understand why maps that lean to one or another playstyle or discourage certain builds should not feature in RAGL. As long as the map is balanced between spawn points and for both factions it should be ok to get into the pool. Even if it doesn't have oils and is generally large, for example, which would promote less double ref and more rax skip plays, it is fine. And occasional buildorder offsets on maps (like early gems available) should also be fine.

TTTPPP
Posts: 170
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:25 pm

Re: Red Alert Global League: Season 11 - Post Season Discussion

Post by TTTPPP »

From the Competitive Feedback channel:
Unano wrote: Oh yea would it be worth streamers being added to the discord chats for the groups so they have an idea when games will be played?
ZxGanon wrote: I got access to masters only
unanos idea is good cause didnt know what was up in minions as a stream

User avatar
netnazgul
Posts: 507
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:32 am
Location: Minsk
Contact:

Re: Red Alert Global League: Season 11 - Post Season Discussion

Post by netnazgul »

One thing I think is definitely worth mentioning in this thread is TTTPPP's introduction into RAGL management team was the best thing that happened this season!
I feel you are exactly the type that is needed for the job, non-conflicting, appealing person that is also good with tinkering stuff :P Keep it up.

User avatar
Kaution
Posts: 21
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:49 pm

Re: Red Alert Global League: Season 11 - Post Season Discussion

Post by Kaution »

Overall i think this is probably one of the better seasons i have seen (since S9), all of the matches were played within their schedule and little to no strikes were given to players.

As said before by others, bringing back Recruits is probably a good idea since the skill gap in minions was quite large imo, Map pool seemed fine to me with a good amount of variety.

The only thing I find odd is the banning system in group stages, Person A can ban Map A during player B's pick, but can pick map A during player A's turn, meaning bans only last one round, not for the entire set of 2 games, this is not the case in playoffs and should be looked at.


Half way the season i had difficulties covering some of the matches live due to not having acces to master chat and TTTPPP being the only one keeping me posted about when certain matches would be played, It seems this got fixed but just a reminder that this can be an agreement going into the next season for streamers.

Minions finals should be Bo5 regardless imho instead of Bo3 just like master finals. :P


Big shoutout to TTTPPP and the people guiding him through directing his first season, looking forward to the next one!

DVoid
Posts: 38
Joined: Fri May 15, 2020 10:05 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Red Alert Global League: Season 11 - Post Season Discussion

Post by DVoid »

the players from the tournament listed as being at a possible recruit league level is spot on. the players listed with me are exactly the players i would have chosen myself.

Blackened
Posts: 331
Joined: Sat May 21, 2016 6:27 pm

Re: Red Alert Global League: Season 11 - Post Season Discussion

Post by Blackened »

Sorry I missed RAGL this year. My schedule literally lined up so that I was entirely away for the whole season and back just as it ended.

Wild idea to help balance out each masters/minions/and reintroduce recruits.

What if we added a preseason type thing and or converted part of the season into a preseason. The general idea is this. there are 2-4 games played at the start of the season that act as evaluating games. We kinda already have SBMM with ladder as well at TTTPPP being able to pull literally any statistic up and see RAGL players' overall performance levels. New players and lower skilled players are punished the worst in RAGL. There have been plenty of people over the years that sign up and get demolished, even in the recruit division.

Likewise, there are always people who sign up and SF instantly (happy cough cough), players who sign up but then can't play (me), or players that are placed in the wrong level and beaten every game. I don't have the statistics on hand, but I assume SF's after the first 2 weeks (with 2 games a week resulting in someone striking out on on game 3 in week 2) are exceedingly rare. I also assume that the same is more or less true for minions with maybe a slightly worse SF ratio.

Having a preseason could help alleviate half empty divisions as well as reorganize divisions when it becomes apparent they are wildly unbalanced. If 3 masters forfeit at the start of the season then top minions can be called up (if they accept of course). Players who clearly don't belong in a division can be dropped to a lower level. If at least 5 minions players could be dropped into a lower division then I think it would make sense to move them.

The three main drawbacks I see for this are:
Players numbers in a division, schedule being lopsided, and easy/hard matchups.

Masters would always be filled with ~14 players but minions could be gutted and a newly formed recruit division would likely be small. Leading to things like...

You could have a division of 6 players who play 10 games over 7 weeks resulting in a lot of BYE's and down time. OR you finish the season early for them which could out pace the rest of the league. The other possibility is having a set amount of weeks and games. 7 weeks 14 games. Which leads to...

easy/hard matchups. Right now everyone plays everyone twice and only twice (with the exception of playoffs obviously), This means everyone has the same chance of getting to the end. With BYE weeks there is the potential for someone to qualify for playoffs early in the season and have 0 games for weeks leading up to the playoffs. This allows them to potentially be cold/unpracticed going into playoffs.

The alternative is ditching the fairness of only playing everyone twice and developing a schedule where you always play a set number of games. In doing so Home/Visitor matches could oddly become a thing again as you might play someone an odd number of times. It also has a high potential to lead to unbalanced schedules. The race for playoffs could be determined by who got to play the weaker players more. I'm sure Pinkthoth would be pretty miffed he had to play GOAT an extra two times while Bain got to play Fiveaces an extra two times. The potential for Bain leap over Pinkthoth because of the schedule would be very apparent.


The alternative to this has been brought up before and that's to have a preseason tournament. But I find this option doesn't help much as early season forfeiters would still leave holes in the divisions and most notably, not everyone has the time to show up for a one day event.


I would say drop the different division levels entirely but at that point RAGL is just a soft ladder and not important for anyone who doesn't make playoffs if playoffs were even still a thing.

You could in theory reseed masters/minions/recruits/ every season based on their MMR but that would also take away the last vestige of SoScared's promotion system. Although to be honest, that system has long be dwindling regardless.

Post Reply