[MOD] [RA] TORA -- the Empire of Japan comes to RA

TORA! TORA! TORA!

Information and discussion for custom maps and mods.
wusche1
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[MOD] [RA] TORA -- the Empire of Japan comes to RA

Post by wusche1 »

[align=center]"To die for the Emperor is to live forever."
-- Japanese Army Slogan[/align]

[align=center]Image[/align]


Short Description

The Empire of Japan is about to expand its sphere of influence and clash with the capitalist and communist power blocks. The faction is planned to introduce some new elements to the game, while still fitting in the overall style of OpenRA. The focus of the Empire will be aerial and naval supremacy, while still beeing able to hold their adversaries at bay with tricks and technology on the ground.

A quick important note to avoid further misunderstandings and show the consensus between the contributors: There are no plans to make the faction's assets to funky, and basically add a faction to the game that might be based on the RA3 theme and gameplay.


How to contribute:

The big bottleneck is - how could it be different - the creation of new unit graphics.
While many unit graphics have been completed and are worked on, there is always need for helping hands. As such, I am glad for any helping hand in this matter, be it new graphics, extracted graphics or unit implementation.

If You have any ideas regarding gameplay, graphics, or have a couple of assets You are anxious to get rid of, please do not hesitate to contact me.

For a first release, the following assets are still needed:

Code: Select all

Infantry:
-- thermoptical camouflage sniper infantry unit (-->Baron) 
-- Volkov, the elite soviet cyber commando

Ships:
-- Torpedo boat --> Bellator

Buildings: 
-- distinct japanese air strip




Thanks to BaronOfStuff and Bellator for helping out!
Last edited by wusche1 on Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:10 pm, edited 29 times in total.

wusche1
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Post by wusche1 »

reserved.

wusche1
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Post by wusche1 »

[align=center]Screenshots et cetera[/align]
[align=center]Image[/align]
[align=center]WIP #22, air strip excluded. [/align]
Last edited by wusche1 on Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:47 am, edited 4 times in total.

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BaronOfStuff
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Post by BaronOfStuff »

I've just realised that this faction will require a new speech set. Want the Japanese C&C one?

bellator
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Post by bellator »

ugh, I don't like this at all. Your "Japan" faction is totally divorced from Japan's actual modern military tradition. I hated RA3, or "command and carnival" as it is generally known. The third "empire" faction was a complete disgrace, an awful joke: I definitely don't think we need to bring it into Openra.

No naval units? Japan was a maritime Empire: its land military was a joke, mostly capable of pushing over its far less developed neighbors, but even against young land military of the US, it was a paper tiger. Japan's true strength was in its fleets and air-force.

Airships are just massive targets for missiles or flak, completely meaningless for military purposes except in some air-defense roles.

Over-use of vacuous go-go gadgetry and scifimangled crap does not belong in Red Alert. I mean, why no classic firearms? Firearms are good: cheap, reliable and way cooler than lasers. And since RA1 takes place in the 1960s, not 2500s, firearms would be mostly used. Laser weapons are boring and overused.

Perhaps the Japan faction could have laser-firing support vehicle to complement tanks, but energy weapons should not be their standard ordinance. Their basic tank could be a multi-turreted vehicle, something that harkens back to earlier, primitive designs.

Japan was not, at any point, technologically superior to west: their military should be less advanced, not vastly ahead, of allies and the soviets. So no invisibility cloaks.

Ion cannon is a GDI thing, why drag it into RA?

And its empire, just empire. Empire of Japan. Not Imperial Empire.

Saying 'Imperial Empire' is like saying 'humanoid human'. Redundant.

wusche1
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Post by wusche1 »

Thanks for Your feedback, although I do prefer constructive critique. I understand that You do not like my idea/concept for some reasons.
bellator wrote: ugh, I don't like this at all. Your "Japan" faction is totally divorced from Japan's actual modern military tradition. I hated RA3, or "command and carnival" as it is generally known. The third "empire" faction was a complete disgrace, an awful joke: I definitely don't think we need to bring it into Openra.
Well, I never played RA3, although I must admit that it gave me inspiration of some sort. I am not trying to re-create the RA3 Japan.

But back to Your critique: Red Alert 2 has nothing to do with military tradition, history tactics, or strategy. It is a abstract real time tactics game, and not a simulation. Just look at the level of simulation, tactical formations, units, technology -- Chrono anyone? I played and modded for real military simulations - not games, mind You. There such arguments are of importance, but not here.
bellator wrote: No naval units? Japan was a maritime Empire: its land military was a joke, mostly capable of pushing over its far less developed neighbors, but even against young land military of the US, it was a paper tiger. Japan's true strength was in its fleets and air-force.
Yes, of course it was. The Combined Fleet was Japan's sword and shield in world war two, and directly resulted from its military doctrine. But again, this is a game, and I hope You have read my idea of a technologically funky super power of the far east.

Having said that, I would be happy to intergrate naval assets, change any design plans. But in general I tend to include stuff that is already partly done. Have You seen a couple of japanese ship SHP files flying around? Tell me. Or make some. That would really help.

Also, air ships might be a nice deviation from the normal RA faction gameplay.

bellator wrote: Airships are just massive targets for missiles or flak, completely meaningless for military purposes except in some air-defense roles.
Good point. Yes, I think that has to be carefully balanced. But again, I am not going for a clone of the allies or soviet faction with other graphics.
bellator wrote: Over-use of vacuous go-go gadgetry and scifimangled crap does not belong in Red Alert. I mean, why no classic firearms? Firearms are good: cheap, reliable and way cooler than lasers. And since RA1 takes place in the 1960s, not 2500s, firearms would be mostly used. Laser weapons are boring and overused.
This argument lacks any base. Even in the 1960, Chronospheres and Iron Curtain mashines were not abundant in use.
Ever build a high energy laser? I did. It's a lot of fun actually. I would love to have a "super-future" high power laser rifle. Instant hit. What annoys me that the weapons have a sound in the game, though. And that the lasers are visible. But oh well.. for gameplay's sake.

bellator wrote: Perhaps the Japan faction could have laser-firing support vehicle to complement tanks, but energy weapons should not be their standard ordinance. Their basic tank could be a multi-turreted vehicle, something that harkens back to earlier, primitive designs.
Yes, the amount of laser weapons in the mod will be balanced, a laser tank support vehicle is already in the works.
bellator wrote: Japan was not, at any point, technologically superior to west: their military should be less advanced, not vastly ahead, of allies and the soviets. So no invisibility cloaks.
This depends on the perspective. Ever looked at the sharpness of a japanese samurai sword? That take of blacksmith techniques never arrived in Europe from Asia. Or the Zero attack plane at the begin of the Pacific war?

Again - and last time - historic arguments do not matter to me very much when it comes to alternate timelines. Japan is a funky faction for me -- a highly technologically advanced faction with some quirks.
bellator wrote: Ion cannon is a GDI thing, why drag it into RA?
Someone invented it. It must have been the japanese Yakuza. But seriously: I am not sure whether it will go in, but it is tempting to use such an asset.
bellator wrote: And its empire, just empire. Empire of Japan. Not Imperial Empire.

Saying 'Imperial Empire' is like saying 'humanoid human'. Redundant.
Well, the name is not of much importance. Believe me, it was deliberate, playing with the problematic translations and weird cultural differences. Kike the weird bar-code on the japanese flag.

Thanks for the feedback.
Last edited by wusche1 on Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:06 am, edited 3 times in total.

wusche1
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Post by wusche1 »

BaronOfStuff wrote: I've just realised that this faction will require a new speech set. Want the Japanese C&C one?
Short answer: Yes!

bellator
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Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:22 am

Post by bellator »

wusche1 wrote: Thanks for Your feedback, although I do prefer constructive critique. I understand that You do not like my idea/concept for some reasons.

I don't mean to come off as rude, but it is not invalid criticism to say that this design has nothing especially "Japanese" about it.
Well, I never played RA3, although I must admit that it gave me inspiration of some sort. I am not trying to re-create the RA3 Japan.
Why would you be inspired something so awful, I have no idea. Japan as a faction is a good idea, but the "empire of the rising sun" is probably the worst faction in CNC history, artistically speaking. This is RA1, which is a more serious game than the subsequent comedy red alerts. Just play the Ra1 campaign, then play ra2 and 3, you immediately see the difference.
But back to Your critique: Red Alert 2 has nothing to do with military tradition,
This is red alert 1 as far as I know.
history tactics, or strategy. It is a abstract real time tactics game, and not a simulation. Just look at the level of simulation, tactical formations, units, technology -- Chrono anyone?


Chronosphere, teslas and Ironcurtain are relatively rare exceptions to a game that is mostly conventional armed forces: battles are solved with tank guns, artillery and machineguns.
I played and modded for real military simulations - not games, mind You. There such arguments are of importance, but not here.
Such arguments matter, they might not be as vital as in, say, ww2 simulator, but the game's time and space context matters:

If not, then lets bring the Warcraft 2 Orcish horde as a faction in game, and lets see how well it fits.

Red Alert 1 takes place in an alternative 1960s, in which some scarce weird techs have been introduced by changes in the timeline and by some interventions by alien beings (namely Kane). This context is not irrelevant: it sets a tone and style to the game.
But again, this is a game, and I hope You have read my idea of a technologically funky super power of the far east.
Doesn't belong in RA imo. A super-duper Japan with stealth samurai who wield katanas and tote laser guns does not belong in Red Alert..
Having said that, I would be happy to intergrate naval assets, change any design plans. But in general I tend to include stuff that is already partly done. Have You seen a couple of japanese ship SHP files flying around? Tell me. Or make some. That would really help.
I can make an ship SHP for you if you want too. Haven't tried to make one, yet, but probably wont be all that difficult.
Even in the 1960, Chronospheres and Iron Curtain mashines were not abundant in use.
They're not primary weapons in the game: in fact, they were largely useless in RA1. Most battles are solved with tank guns, artillery, machine guns, missiles, not with fantasy weapons. Even if you add laser weaponry for the Japanese, I don't think that you should deviate too far from this.

I can make some models for you, too.

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riderr3
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Post by riderr3 »

hmm... Not sure about this idea, looking not realistic (Yeah, I dont like some parts of RA3 too).

But... What about Iran faction? They have many own units like tanks Zulfiqar, submarines Tareq, Ghadr-110 long-range missiles and other...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mi ... ed_in_Iran

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BaronOfStuff
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Post by BaronOfStuff »

Compared to both the Allies and Soviets, having Iran all alone in the conflict would be something of a slightly irritating, uninvited guest, especially in the RA timeframe.

An entire Middle-Eastern/Arabic Coalition though? That would be much more of an obstacle.

One thing I suggest to make the Japanese faction sound more plausible is that they've conquered China and Korea. Sounds silly considering it has no direct bearing on the gameplay, but little things like this can irk me for silly reasons.

wusche1
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Post by wusche1 »

bellator wrote:
Why would you be inspired something so awful, I have no idea. Japan as a faction is a good idea, but the "empire of the rising sun" is probably the worst faction in CNC history, artistically speaking. This is RA1, which is a more serious game than the subsequent comedy red alerts. Just play the Ra1 campaign, then play ra2 and 3, you immediately see the difference.
Well, it was great to exchange some views in the chat and remove misunderstandings. I agree with You that a no-sense faction is, well, non-sense. I do not want orcs, but brave japanese imperial soldiers fighting imperialists and communists alike.

It is great that we can work together on this, and I am very glad for all the support from Baron as well.

So, in short: this will not be a RA3 remake.

I have updated one of the first posts with a screenshot of the current work in progress (wip #22).

There is a lot of work done on naval and air assets, and there is good hope for some faction related code changes.

All in all, the Empire of Japan is heading to become a strong contender of the oceans and a master of the air, with some interesting quirks on the ground as well.

wusche1
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Post by wusche1 »

Well, it seems I have a problem with the conversion of the following cameo: The japanese scout vehicle, the "Kamatsu LAV" shows weird distortions. Anyone could give this conversion a go?
Attachments
screenshot of the distortions in the build menu. Check out white pixels in the Kamatsu.
screenshot of the distortions in the build menu. Check out white pixels in the Kamatsu.
build menu.png (55.32 KiB) Viewed 8928 times
RA1 palette version of the file, with inscription.
RA1 palette version of the file, with inscription.
bggyicon.png (5.43 KiB) Viewed 8928 times
KAMATSU LAV raw png file, non RA1 palette.
KAMATSU LAV raw png file, non RA1 palette.
k0000.png (5.28 KiB) Viewed 8928 times

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BaronOfStuff
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Post by BaronOfStuff »

It's usually a palette conversion error when 'nearest colour' is selected. Try these:

(I've also included a new cameo for the unit with the fixed original, as the current one -- a unit on a white background -- looks a bit bland compared to others.)
Attachments
Cameos.zip
Komatsu cameo icons
(5.37 KiB) Downloaded 287 times

wusche1
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Post by wusche1 »

Got it! Thanks!

wusche1
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Post by wusche1 »

While waiting for some of the final assets for te mod I am working currently on unit balancing. If You want to have a look what is needed, check out the section in the first post.

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