Allies GPS usage change

Discussion about the game and its default mods.

Does GPS needs tweaking?

Yes, GPS is an OP feature
18
56%
No, GPS is quite balanced as it is
13
41%
Yes, GPS needs buff
1
3%
 
Total votes: 32

noobmapmaker
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Post by noobmapmaker »

What I dislike about the GPS is that it seems to be expensive and it takes long to activate it's power, but once it's active it's really strong. Perhaps it should be quite expensive and it should take quite long, and once it's active it's pretty strong.

I do like the high risk, high reward where people get anxious when time's allmost up. But it should be a tad less game winning. If units don't auto target into the shroud then that might be a sufficient nerf allready?
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FRenzy
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Post by FRenzy »

Btw netnazgul, the 4. idea is interesting, even though it wasn't what I meant :p , but why not ^^
(Although the incoming direction is still random)



My 2 cents here on the GPS :

Seeing the map and enemy movements is already winning half the game, from a strategical point of view. A Soviet player can still do that, by filling the map with Yaks and do active scouting.

I agree with Smitty to call GPS a maphack. At least, it makes life easier for the Allied player, as he doesn't need to scout anymore, and may reassign all his air units into combat, while Yaks would still be needed for scouting.

Also, Yaks can't approach too much into a defended base, or an army blob, to avoid getting killed. And late game, they can be hunted down by Longbows. Therefore, map coverage by a Soviet player will never be as good as a GPS' one.

OP or not, at least GPS gives a clear strategical advantage to the Allies, that is difficult to match by Soviet players, although not impossible.



If it ever had to be toned down, I'm adding another idea here :

A kinda "3b" idea, where the GPS satellite is not activated by the player, but rather regularly and automatically actived, let's say every 2 mins for 15-20 secs. With an announcement.

This gives less control for the Allied player over the gameplay. He does not to choose when to activate it, whether defensively (before his enemy attacks), or aggressively (before attacking his enemy).
This also gives a regular 1'40 span for the soviet player to counter and use his IC, while the Allied player is "blind". That means a Soviet player can adapt to the GPS timing, and play with this blind spot; while the Allied player can't play with it, or use it to counter his enemy's strategy.

And that would force the Allied player to resume his active scouting while the GPS is off.

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AoAGeneral1
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Post by AoAGeneral1 »

At the moment honestly I think this may be the best response: https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/pull/14117

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avalach21
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Post by avalach21 »

the original game you could forever see all enemy movements exposed after simply revealing the shroud. stop whining. Too much enemy movement is being concealed and GPS moves gameplay in the right direction closer to the way its meant to be played

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netnazgul
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Post by netnazgul »

Btw, Happy, you can't say GPS has completely no counterpart on Soviet side as Soviets have Spy plane. Still it's MIGHTILY underpowered when compared to GPS. Although it still comes earlier because it only requires airfield which is cheaper and builds up faster. So completely removing GPS or giving GPS to Soviets will just tip the scales from Allies to Soviet on this issue, not just balance it out.

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MustaphaTR
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Post by MustaphaTR »

I'm not really sure about current state of RA mod, haven't played for a pretty long while, but maybe instead of trying to nerf the GPS, maybe we should try to buff Spy Plane. I really liked that on Fortnight's Overhaul mod, Soviet Tech Center gave an extra Spy Plane. There are several ways extra Spy Plane SWs can be implemented.

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netnazgul
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Post by netnazgul »

I'd say not "instead" but "with" the changes Smitty mentioned - these will be fairly balanced

Printer
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Post by Printer »

(Commented on GitHub already but in the interest of discussion)

Rather than changing Allies' GPS, let the Soviets build the Forward Command Post with a large radius which might act like GPS. This would:
a. Give the Soviet's a unique version of the GPS effect which would still make Spy Planes necessary and useful,
b. Stay "lore" friendly, and be a Soviet reflection of the Allied Gap Generator
c. Make the structure useful to be captured (perhaps allowing it to have Build Radius too),
d. No re-writing needed of GPS or Auto target code.

Perhaps T3 (or T2 as the Allied GPS is better, depending on the radius of the Forward Command's "Advanced" Radar). Maybe $1800.00, -150 Power, Radius of 25?

SafwatHalaby
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Post by SafwatHalaby »

It's worth noting the spy plane can reveal *Which* building there is, so it has 1 advantage over a GPS, for e.g. locating atom bombs.

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netnazgul
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Post by netnazgul »

SafwatHalaby wrote: It's worth noting the spy plane can reveal *Which* building there is, so it has 1 advantage over a GPS, for e.g. locating atom bombs.
Still having 8(?) tile radius zone revealed each 2(?) minutes is quite not the same as having a constant vision of where the enemy army is.

camundahl
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Post by camundahl »

GPS is fine, if anything get rid of the ability to auto-target a gps revealed unit or structure.

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3.Lucian
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Post by 3.Lucian »

even the vote on this topic has not been able to establish a clear consensus that a problem actually even exists.

The factions are different, deal with it. It makes for a more interesting game.

There are other ways of balancing that dont involve nerfing gps, which as we have established, there is no consensus that an issue with it specifically exists

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Smitty
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Post by Smitty »

Let me elaborate on why and where GPS is causing problems. The problem isn’t just GPS being too powerful. The problem is, when GPS is up fluid gameplay becomes impossible. You simply cannot make the moves to get behind your opponent that you could before. This is bad for not just players, but also spectators. I’ll highlight a few situations:

- Allied vs Soviet: After the Allied player gets GPS, the soviet player must turtle in between Iron Curtain cooldowns, and attempt to cause as much damage as possible whenever IC is up. If you can keep the arty count down with ICs, you have a fighting chance. If you don't, you lose. Hope you built a nuke before the other guy during all this because this game will take a good deal of time to win.

- Allied vs Allied, both with GPS: This is an arty fight to the death. Even the most open maps become bogged down as any attempt to move an army is countered. I once had an hour long game vs Barf on Sirocco. Despite playing on the largest, most open map in the game, movement through the center became impossible, and we ended up wailing on each other with arty on the flanks.

- Allied vs Allied, one with GPS: The guy who has GPS wins; hands down. Had a game on Lorry’s stream where I was a few minutes behind on the GPS timers. I sacrificed roughly 20K worth of helicopters to destroy his tech center before he could launch. Totally worth it. Was able to queue 20 arty and win, despite his huge army advantage.
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Printer
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Post by Printer »

Smitty wrote: Let me elaborate on why and where GPS is causing problems. The problem isn’t just GPS being too powerful. The problem is, when GPS is up fluid game-play becomes impossible... ...huge advantage.

So what you're saying is the GPS effect of things being target-able with-in Fog of War automatically by units is where the actual problem lies?

- If the problem is GPS ruining fluid game-play:
How would Ally players execute their Chrono crushes? I hate alot of players who love doing that. How would T-nooks know where to bring Tanya? How would those vehicle Chrono steal + kills go down? This would infact be a nerf to Germany.

There's also Gap Generators. I spec'd a game recently where a France player used them to conceal their base. True it was small map, but Allies have a way to deal with GPS, Soviets do not.

- Soviets are handicapped
When I play vs GPS (Soviet), and not including what you mentioned with IC:
a. I try to avoid making blobs of infantry (or anything),
b. Build Silos / do the sell & replace trick,
c. Hide aircraft "Off Map",
d. Use more multi-prong attacks if I can,
e. Float$ and build extra Bar/WF so I can spend that money with rapid deployment when an opportunity presents itself,
f. Hope I get Ukraine as it allows more random effects to screw with Allied players, and
g. Use walls or mines and get more subs if useful.

All those are weak responses and I think the Soviet disadvantage post GPS is significant.

Perhaps making GPS only reveal buildings or vehicles would be ok but at the moment, T3 Soviets < T3 Allies. Or perhaps it could time out. That would make it realistic with Satellite technology at that time RA is set.

zinc
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Post by zinc »

There is the option of coming up with a new counter for Soviets. Something equivalent to gap generators, or not too far away...

"GPS jammer"?

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