Balance Openra

Openra needs balance

Discussion about the game and its default mods.
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avalach21
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Post by avalach21 »

AoAGeneral1 wrote: This of course leaves a slight problem with Allies as their main source of mobile AA comes from E3. Which is why base crawling/pushing tends to happen in RA to help cover that ground. (Exception being some units such as the Chrono Tanks however faction specific and high tech. Longbow also being high tech.)
Are you sure about this? I was assuming this myself but I'm pretty sure I remember trying to have the Chrono Tanks shoot air and was surprised they didn't... Maybe I'm mistaken.

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AoAGeneral1
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Post by AoAGeneral1 »

avalach21 wrote:
AoAGeneral1 wrote: This of course leaves a slight problem with Allies as their main source of mobile AA comes from E3. Which is why base crawling/pushing tends to happen in RA to help cover that ground. (Exception being some units such as the Chrono Tanks however faction specific and high tech. Longbow also being high tech.)
Are you sure about this? I was assuming this myself but I'm pretty sure I remember trying to have the Chrono Tanks shoot air and was surprised they didn't... Maybe I'm mistaken.
This is actually true O.o This actually is a bit odd to me honestly.

I always thought Chrono Tanks shot air. I will double check this in RA95 see if those do.

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Clockwork
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Post by Clockwork »

It would be awesome if they could, theyre so useless atm apart from on Winterstorm.

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anjew
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Post by anjew »

I think even if they did shoot air, they wouldn't be an acceptable Mobile AA, for the same reason the longbow isn't.
SirCake wrote: APM of 51.515$ (Assets killed Per Minute), while the (debatably OP pillbox) as a maximum APM of 27.272$.
This is either a fallacy or needs a lot more clarification.
How is this assets killed per minute calculated? Did you take it from replays or from in game testing?
Because the thing is, the AA gun will always be presented with units of much higher cost. A yak costs 10x as much a rifle man, the most common thing a pillbox would be presented with. However, pillboxes can kill nonarmoured vehicles so if a pillbox was presented with say, artilleries, the Assests killed Per Minute may be much higher than you suggested
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SirCake
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Post by SirCake »

@anjew: Calculated from this:
I did this originally to make a clear point with some simple numbers that the AA gun is OP as fuck and is a forbidding unit. Basically you can't use any aircraft inside base areas because any value you gain by destroying buildings by multiple attack runs is instantly turned into a net loss if you get AA-Gun popped or miss the tiny AA-gun sprite for any reason.

* Imho a reasonable solution would be to reduce damage for AA-gun/sam site by like 60%, increase sam site range to that of the aa gun and give both +1 vision. This way the defensive buildings deter air attackers better but don't instagib air attacks.

(@anjew: An arty takes 3 shots from a pillbox and costs 800, a spy takes 1 shot and costs 500. So running spies into pillboxes is still the worst case.
I compared worst case (for the attacker) pillbox pop vs best case AA-gun pop to make a point.)
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crlf
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Post by crlf »

Regarding the problem where yaks need a lot of micro to scout AA guns and survive, putting a FireDelay on the AA Gun might help. Needs some experimentation - a value of about 10 means you can dip into the range a bit, but it is still deadly if you do not react. 20 is probably too much. In either case, after the initial delay, the AA gun still does the same damage over time if you are fully committed, or if you are carelessly leaving hinds idle in range. This would also prevent the ready-to-place AA from being an unscoutable hard counter to any air atttack, which a range nerf would not achieve. It will still punish over-zealous blobs, but will not wipe out quite as many thousands.

NethIafin
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Post by NethIafin »

Air deterrence is supposed to be strong. It is static anti-air defense that is countering insanely mobile army. It was always like this. It is a bit strange for me, that AAgun and SAM was not swapped (since it was original intention of RA devs team, but was switched due to SAM being future Nod Tech), since AA is generally better vs fast planes and SAM is better vs slow but bulky helis

If my opinion worth anything, I'd say:
1) make planes a bit(+1-2) faster
2) make helis a bit(+25%) stronger in health
3) swap AA with sam (for god sake we have flak truck in soviets and AA gun weapon is called ZSU (Ð—ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ‚Ð½Ð°Ñ Ð¡Ñ‚Ð°Ñ†Ð¸Ð¾Ð½Ð°Ñ€Ð½Ð°Ñ Ð£Ñтановка), and SAM is Nike ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Nike ) a WWII US anti-air project
4) balance water in some way... Maybe allow few buildings to be built there, like PP and turrets/tesla, so maps can be more... watery (this is longshot though)

As for flamerushes - for most part this is up to the map. If starting locations are close (like Ysmir RAGL:IV) you can get rushed because you had not enough time to react. But really... wall off your ConYard. Flame rushes are just to nuke your conyard, you don't really care if they kill your barraks or power

I hope I wasn't too ranty

Hodor
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Post by Hodor »

another important point: reduce the size of cicrles yaks do.

sometimes one cannot eat enough one wants to vomish.

eskimo
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Post by eskimo »

Yaks that spin on the spot, is a funny prospect.

Hodor
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Post by Hodor »

reduce != remove.

what i complain about is the ability of possible micro that is taken by that long circle. Killer AA just gets mor possibility to kill. And considering similar price yak feels much more useless than hind.

what i can do when microing say 3 hinds well is in huge difference than what i can do with 3 yak.

Hodor
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Post by Hodor »

next thing is units, V2 f.e., forgetting their target, if that gets under fog again. guess that is relatet with force fire on stealth bunker shitfuck problem.

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AoAGeneral1
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Post by AoAGeneral1 »

Mentioned this in another post before:

Best solution for AA balancing is give them inaccuracy with some splash damage. Slow their rate of fire down a little bit.

Their damage won't be scaled so high now unless it its with accuracy. Otherwise they will do damage over splash amounts. This will still kill yaks since they have no collisions. (Stack on each other when moving) which means the splash will hit multiple yaks. Spreading your aircraft out vs the AA gun will be a good thing.

-- Reduce accuracy. (Make them inaccurate.)

-- Slow their rate of fire. (Just a little at first.)

-- Increase splash damage. (Very slightly at first.)

SirCake
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Post by SirCake »

@clrf: I like the idea, though I find the damage output still needs a reducion on top of this.

@AoA General: You are proposing to change how the AA gun works, not to balance its power level. This is a feature request, not a balance suggestion.

@Hodor: Thats because the Hind is better over all. Cost is the same, but more HP and more ammo(kills 12 infantry, yak kills 6).
But I like your suggestion to reduce turn radius on yaks to make them more nimble and more reliable scouts.

@NethIaf: I disagree with every point and everything you said.

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anjew
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Post by anjew »

SirCake wrote: @AoA General: You are proposing to change how the AA gun works, not to balance its power level. This is a feature request, not a balance suggestion.
Not really a feature request since I'm pretty sure all of these traits exist and it hardly changes how it works, it adds a layer of complexity to what is a very simple thing. It's an AA gun that instantly hits air units in its range/view and is 100% accurate. If think you want to keep it that way then fine but it is a balance suggestion and an interesting one at least.

I like the idea of slow turning rate but the problem is that players can't manually choose its facing and this could unintentionally punish players.
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SirCake
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Post by SirCake »

@anjew crlf suggested a "fire delay" not a turn rate reduction.

Reducing the accuraccy is equivalent to reducing the damage output, but adding an AOE to the AA gun in return to "slightly" reducing damage really isnt a debuff.
Also AA-AOE is how things work in RA2 and it would require a completely new balance effort.

I dont see why a nerf must be super complicated and indirect (and ineffective), just lower the damage.

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