Let's talk about RA's Navy

AKA Blackened's Naval Balance testing

Discussion about the game and its default mods.
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Doomsday
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Post by Doomsday » Sat May 06, 2017 5:03 pm

MustaphaTR wrote: I'm not really a fan of adding a new unit to Soviets that is not a Sub. Their naval facility is called a Submarine Pen afterall, even tho they can build Transport boat too.
I totally agree with this statement.
The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.
-Sun Tzu

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SoScared
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Post by SoScared » Sat May 06, 2017 5:11 pm

Adding a boat to Soviet's Sub Pen might be a bit awkward but borrowing Soviet's RA2 Sea Scorpion (Flak Boat) is a suggestion that has been around for some years. If anything it would make RA's naval balancing less hazardous.

Blackened
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Post by Blackened » Sat May 06, 2017 7:33 pm

Soviets lack of ballistics in the sea has worried me a bit. Especially in the early game. Hence why I considered giving them the gun boat too.

While I wouldn't be opposed to adding something like the sea scorpion I would find that incredibly hard to balance.

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SoScared
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Post by SoScared » Sat May 06, 2017 8:23 pm

Should add to the pool:

Singles
Doubles
Aquarius: http://resource.openra.net/maps/19852/
Sea Battel: http://resource.openra.net/maps/18040/

To get some more matches rolling.

SirCake
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Post by SirCake » Sun May 07, 2017 4:06 pm

Hey, I had some thoughts on navy as well and i guess its the right time to churn them out.
My ideas are more focused on making the units interesting to build, less balance.

1) give patrol boat an MG weapon instead of cannon. This gives them a role later in the game, clearing shores from enemy infantry. (+1@Omnom)
2) make the missile sub missile track vehicle targets, this would also justify why there are tracking anti air missiles in the sub. (+1@blackened, wasnt clear at all from your post that they do that allready!^^)
3) give the regular sub a transport slot for one infantry, making it suitable for special forces attacks. (this makes subs not totaly useless after clearing the sea) (+1@GeneralMelon_gone)
4) Possibly remove air attack from destroyer, making it a cruise missile destroyer, so air attacks with yaks and migs are actualy possible on destroyer blobs. (preventing allied sea lockdown)
5) possibly (to prevent soviet sea lockdown) give helis a very small sub reveal radius. Give Soviet Tesla Coil sub detection for the same reason (it is an electric weapon after all).
6) Additionaly to the other changes to transports give them an anti air gun, similar in power to a flack truck.
...) I also think the Longbow is too strong, in general, thats also why it owns missile subs so fast.

I am commited to d2k modding, so don't have any time to implement those as a test map - but all the above are easy mods (except missile sub missile tracking maybe...).

Cheers :)
Last edited by SirCake on Sun May 07, 2017 8:30 pm, edited 4 times in total.

SirCake
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Post by SirCake » Sun May 07, 2017 4:15 pm

WhoCares wrote:
Subs not having to uncloak to shoot
The subs, permasubmerged, could also be forced to surface on damage (e.g. if a depth charge explodes near by). preventing the allies from beeing unable to destroy any sub that moves submerged.

fernoe
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Post by fernoe » Sun May 07, 2017 6:36 pm

Blackened wrote: Soviets lack of ballistics in the sea has worried me a bit. Especially in the early game. Hence why I considered giving them the gun boat too.

While I wouldn't be opposed to adding something like the sea scorpion I would find that incredibly hard to balance.
since a sea scorpion would have the exact same function as the flak truck, it might just be easier to make the flak truck amphibious

Blackened
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Post by Blackened » Sun May 07, 2017 8:00 pm

SirCake wrote: 1) give patrol boat an MG weapon instead of cannon. This gives them a role later in the game, clearing shores from enemy infantry. (+1@Omnom)
2) make the missile sub missile track vehicle targets, this would also justify why there are tracking anti air missiles in the sub. (+1@blackened, wasnt clear at all from your post that they do that allready!^^)
3) give the regular sub a transport slot for one infantry, making it suitable for special forces attacks. (this makes subs not totaly useless after clearing the sea) (+1@GeneralMelon_gone)
4) Possibly remove air attack from destroyer, making it a cruise missile destroyer, so air attacks with yaks and migs are actualy possible on destroyer blobs. (preventing allied sea lockdown)
5) possibly (to prevent soviet sea lockdown) give helis a very small sub reveal radius. Give Soviet Tesla Coil sub detection for the same reason (it is an electric weapon after all).
6) Additionaly to the other changes to transports give them an anti air gun, similar in power to a flack truck.
...) I also think the Longbow is too strong, in general, thats also why it owns missile subs so fast.


1) If the Sea Scorpion was added I would 100% agree with this change. That was both sides have something equivalent to anti infantry on tier 1. Otherwise PT boats would rule Seas
Scorpions.

2) sorry I thought It was clear when I said they took destroyer traits. I'll edit it regardless. :)

3) I think people overplay how effective this would be. The best thing a soviet player could transfer would be an engineer. Maybe a tanya in a late team game. It would simply be overshadowed by the faster and higher capacity of the transport.

4) It would certainly solve the tier 2 AA discrepancy. Something about it though just doesn't feel right.

5)Soscared mentioning giving naval/subpen stealth detection which I think is a good idea. Also someone also mentioned bringing back sonar pulse into play which would also work.

6) Transports are way too fast for AA. I'm not sure a Mig could outrun them.

7) Longbows are really good against regular subs and if you can distract a Missile Sub they can work. However, unchallenged Missile Subs will tear up Longbows.

SirCake
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Post by SirCake » Sun May 07, 2017 8:23 pm

Hi again, I gathered some feedback
4 Games on Bombardment island (because it is popular and has low eco->balance issues show easily)
First, oppinion of other people:
g1 - no feedback
g2 - "did you nerf subs?"," was there any change?" (obviously supernoobs)
g3 - not much feedback
g4 - "subs cant kill any ships", "subs need buff", "overall makes sense"

My oppinion:
Summary: I liked it a lot! It is way better than the original. Especialy landings with the new transport are acually potent now! only a few small points of concern:

A) subs are too weak, and the torps track too well. no evasion possible. bad, because i liked the naval micro. -> please decrease torp turn rate and increase damage, a little (halfaway between normal and you ptach should be fine). subs are just too weak atm.
see g2 - ~12:44 - orange attacks from top and one detroyer "tanks" all shots from 3 subs.

B) Gunboats are too good now. Reasons: too high damage. See g2 red attacks bottom, gets defenses, naval and warfactory with gunboats.. -> better reduce damage back down again and change damage type to grenade (so damage vs yard and inf is ok, but weak against defenses)
Also: fix this - the depth charge of gunboat has too high range (make it almost close range, more realistic, fairer). I know why you did this (unit allways moves to range point of lowest range weapon). To fix this i sent you a PM with the code.

C) Probably "unfair", but not directly related to you mod: Remove destroyer AA attack (as i proposed before) or fix the "double shot" issue (merge into one weapon for instance). See g3~18:00 bottom - 5 hinds get OWNED by destroyers while in naval/ground battle.

D) Probably "unfair", but not directly related to you mod: Any number of ships can get repairs from 1 dock. restrict to one per dock.

E) Probably "unfair", but not directly related to you mod: due to transports beeing able to move on shores, subs cant hit them there. that is unfair. Also transports are too quick, even gunboats can't catch them.

F) Your mission briefing sucks^^. Use percentage increase or decreases, and general terms like "sub torpedo tracking improved", no meaningless numbers pls!

I have to stress: I realy liked the changes, though!!

I used minimum words english to shorten this post, so excuse my language ^^
Attachments
NavalReplays.zip
g1, g2, g3, g4 inside
(1.46 MiB) Downloaded 59 times
Last edited by SirCake on Sun May 07, 2017 8:59 pm, edited 5 times in total.

SirCake
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Post by SirCake » Sun May 07, 2017 8:30 pm

@blackened 1) I take back my proposal - a MG gunboat would shut down early capture play too hard, i think - especialy on maps like bomb. islands. Grenade damage seems more reasonable.

@blackened 3) flame thrower? hijacker? i think you underestimate such infantry from unexpected angles.

@blackened 5) the problem is that placing a navyard isn't possible or insta-destroyed in a lock down scenario. thats why -> air and -> base defense. (and tesla allready has a vision role VS gap generation)

@blackened 6) they are too fast in general

Also, somehow you messed up the missile sub range - before it was on par with the cruiser, now it has barely more range than a destroyer and is even outranged by an arty. Hardly a high-tier artillery unit!
I would imagine the missile sub as cruise missile artillery, with nearly inescapable cruise missiles (long track range)...

Blackened
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Post by Blackened » Mon May 08, 2017 3:41 am

Valuable feedback! Thanks! :)
subs are too weak...one destroyer "tanks" all shots from 3 subs.
Torpedoes are unavoidable for everything but gunboats, transports, and anything that immediately moves out of the attack range. It does currently take 5 torpedoes to kill a destroyer which is a lot. Perhaps taking it down to 4 torpedoes would be better but considering a destroyer can't reliably avoid the attack it could be too much.

Another quick note. Simply sending 2 subs against much bigger balls of navy is not going to cut it which is what cormoran did the whole game. (He also the person that said subs can't deal with ships) Vision is important! Subs out range all of Allies natural vision range but they need a yak to scout ahead. Alternatively, send in a sub and use it to just scout. For instance, in the third replay glabasnat only lost 3 naval engagements with his subs. 1 was when 2 PT Boats found a lone sub. 2 was when two subs attacked the shore instead of a destroyer and the last when it was 2 subs vs 3 destroyers at depth charge range. I expect subs to lose in those scenarios every time regardless of my changes or vanilla. I think if you are going to go against a navy without vision you need a 1:1 ratio per ship. Regardless it needs more testing I think.
Gunboats are too good now.
They do seem really strong now. I think a slight damage debuff or ROF debuff would be feasible. But I actually didn't touch depth charges at all! Those are the exact same as vanilla!
fix the "double shot" issue
I think this is a larger issue tbh. A PT Boat kills a sub in 4 depth charges, but since the 3rd depth charge puts in in the red, the PT Boat will instant kill it with it's cannon. It takes 7 cannon shots to kill a sub. With the double shot issue a sub can be taken out with 2 depth charges and 3-5 cannon shots depending on if the cannon or depth charge hits first. This means its actually safer for a sub to not relcloak when attacking PT Boats. Same thing with Destroyers. Currently however, the cloak delay is faster than their ROF so they always recloak.
Probably "unfair", but not directly related to you mod: due to transports beeing able to move on shores, subs cant hit them there.
Interesting and a pretty clear imbalance.
Your mission briefing sucks
I'll work on it ^^
@blackened 3) flame thrower? hijacker? i think you underestimate such infantry from unexpected angles.
Okay maybe hijacker. But still for $50 more you get 1200% carry capacity, faster vehicle speed, and more armor. It's similar to chinook vs ranger. Sure early game you use a ranger but late game chinook all the way. Still it could be added for just that reason.
Also, somehow you messed up the missile sub range
Intentional to an extent. Considering Missile subs are much closer to super destroyers rather than an artillery piece I nerfed their range considerably. I was worried if it was still 16 cells they would be too good at harassing. People complained when Destroyers had the 9 cell attack range. Missile subs currently have 10. They are much more general purpose unit then artillery now.


Anyways I wanted to thank you again for the feedback. Testing this is going to very very slow. And taking a page from Soscared, any changes I make will be done over a long period of time. Also I'm not king on this or anything. There is even the possibility of after months of testing and finalizing none of the changes make it into a release. ^^

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avalach21
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Post by avalach21 » Mon May 08, 2017 5:32 am

SirCake wrote: Hi again, I gathered some feedback
4 Games on Bombardment island (because it is popular and has low eco->balance issues show easily)
First, oppinion of other people:
g1 - no feedback
g2 - "did you nerf subs?"," was there any change?" (obviously supernoobs)
g3 - not much feedback
g4 - "subs cant kill any ships", "subs need buff", "overall makes sense"

My oppinion:
Summary: I liked it a lot! It is way better than the original. Especialy landings with the new transport are acually potent now! only a few small points of concern:

A) subs are too weak, and the torps track too well. no evasion possible. bad, because i liked the naval micro. -> please decrease torp turn rate and increase damage, a little (halfaway between normal and you ptach should be fine). subs are just too weak atm.
see g2 - ~12:44 - orange attacks from top and one detroyer "tanks" all shots from 3 subs.

B) Gunboats are too good now. Reasons: too high damage. See g2 red attacks bottom, gets defenses, naval and warfactory with gunboats.. -> better reduce damage back down again and change damage type to grenade (so damage vs yard and inf is ok, but weak against defenses)
Also: fix this - the depth charge of gunboat has too high range (make it almost close range, more realistic, fairer). I know why you did this (unit allways moves to range point of lowest range weapon). To fix this i sent you a PM with the code.

C) Probably "unfair", but not directly related to you mod: Remove destroyer AA attack (as i proposed before) or fix the "double shot" issue (merge into one weapon for instance). See g3~18:00 bottom - 5 hinds get OWNED by destroyers while in naval/ground battle.

D) Probably "unfair", but not directly related to you mod: Any number of ships can get repairs from 1 dock. restrict to one per dock.

E) Probably "unfair", but not directly related to you mod: due to transports beeing able to move on shores, subs cant hit them there. that is unfair. Also transports are too quick, even gunboats can't catch them.

F) Your mission briefing sucks^^. Use percentage increase or decreases, and general terms like "sub torpedo tracking improved", no meaningless numbers pls!

I have to stress: I realy liked the changes, though!!

I used minimum words english to shorten this post, so excuse my language ^^
I think I pwned u during one of those games. lol jk, it was a good game. Pretty sure you had me beat with your navy until I chronoshifted half of it away and picked off the other half. The gunboats were prob a bit too strong but I like the idea of making them a bit stronger. They needed a bit more dmg IMO, especially to land targets on the shore.

My one ally seemed to do ok with his Subs. Your entire team was Allies, so I can't really speak on what it was like to play vs them. Im not sure I saw a Missle Sub all game.

The additional slots on the transport were cool. I think it would make sense to have vehicles take up extra slots like in RA2. def had some cool landing attempts, although we held them all off. Good try.

noobmapmaker
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Post by noobmapmaker » Mon May 08, 2017 6:11 am

Pondering on the single transportslot for the sub: could be a single infantryslot, but could also be one vehicle? This would open up many possibilities: an MCV, APC loaded with units or even a demotruck.

Another idea: a small and cheap, easy to destroy, scoutsub that has no weapons, it just provides vision. Could be used like a ranger in naval battles. But this would diverge us from the original RA series, so probably not an option.

Or: when the techcenter is built for the soviets all subs gain extra vision or some other bonus.

Edit: also wanted to say that Im glad with the work you guys do! The balancing is really getting to a more productive level and it seems to pay off. I would love to see more naval battles and amphibious assaults.
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avalach21
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Post by avalach21 » Mon May 08, 2017 7:06 am

Since we are throwing some radical ideas out there, how about we give the Soviets GDI's hovercraft from Tiberian Dawn as a buildable unit. You can use it to transport troops or vehicles... And whatever is your cargo can shoot while in transport..


So you can load a flak track onto it and it becomes a flak boat..

I was thinking of limiting it to just vehicles.. but you could load it with infantry too if you wanted. Have 5 or even more rocket troops could be pretty neat! Not sure how this would balance out though lol

Just thought it was an interesting idea to toy around with :-)


Let's also then take this as an opportunity to think about bringing the helicarrier into the game, either for the Allies and/or Soviets. As mentioned earlier in this thread, I am in support of giving the Soviets back the helipad and access to the hind and transport helicopter. Even more absurd idea.. Give the allies the helicarrier and give the soviets an aircraft carrier as a counterpart... could be very interesting.

Let's all remember now that the helicarrier is a unit created by Westwood that exists in the original release of the Aftermath expansion :-)


http://cnc.wikia.com/wiki/Helicarrier
Last edited by avalach21 on Mon May 08, 2017 9:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

SirCake
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Post by SirCake » Mon May 08, 2017 8:40 am

@blackened: ok to everything you said. looking forward to sub transports :)

The C) or "double shot issue" is about something different: If you attack a ground target with the destroyer stinger and then retarget (for example by pressing "S") onto an air target, the destroyer instantly shoots again. No rearm time. So this leads to beeing able to turn any air attack on a destroyer into a desaster simply by pressing "S". You can even micro and switch back and forth between ground/air targets doubling the damage output of the destroyers. That has got to be fixed...
(I think this is because there are 2 independent weapons for sea/air targets -> merge them, be fine)

@avalanch: the heli carrier simply looks super ugly^^

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