Destination: a port of the eponymous StarCraft map

Discussion about the game and its default mods.
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kyrylo
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Destination: a port of the eponymous StarCraft map

Post by kyrylo » Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:26 am

Destination is one of my favourite StarCraft maps. It is a duel map (1v1) in StarCraft.
This map is similar to one of my other maps called Designation.

I decided to implement an OpenRA port, and I must say it was a very hard and time
consuming task. I tried not to simply mirror things, but make them more personal. I have
also added 2 additional spawns, so you can play 2v2.

The map is in beta and I'm happy to adjust it to your needs. I'm aware of some issues
with misplaced tiles. I decided not to polish them as it's really hard to do it properly. If
the map will be popular, I can fix everything. I simply don't want to waste time now.
The map includes:
  • hospitals
  • hostile dogs
  • cities
  • neutral citizens
  • lots of oil derricks
  • bridges
I'm unsure that:
  • the placement of ore patches is balanced for both players
  • bridges are relevant and won't be annoying
  • there's enough ore on the map for interesting games
  • some oil derricks need barbwire
I guarantee that:
  • both sides are balanced in terms of the ore quantity
Please, play the map and share your replays and feedback with me.

Download link: http://resource.openra.net/maps/2805/

Thanks!

CHANGELOG

v1
  • Initial release

v2
  • Fixed bad tiles of bedrock at the middle left base with gems and oil derricks
  • Removed hostile dogs altogether
  • Replaced all gems with ore, but made patches in the middle left (and right) consisting only of gems
  • Added two additional spawns for 2v2 games (the map can still be played 1v1
  • Significantly reduced the quantity of ore. Player 1 starts with $16000 in ore equivalent at their bases and player 2 with $14200, but with 2 mines. Other ore patches are also not bigger than $16000 ore worth.
  • Removed walls
  • Widen the pathways where the walls were
  • Fixed the pond at the middle right of the map, so it's not possible to build naval yard in there
v3
  • Moved second player spawns to the main bases (that is, the spawns are close now)
  • Added more ore to the main bases ($28000 ore worth).
  • Moved the position of ore patches at the main bases
  • Removed citizens from main bases and put barbed wire around derricks
  • Put barbed wire around the derricks in the middle
  • Added two more gap generators in the middle
  • Redesigned skyscrapers in the middle (turned them into houses)
  • Reduced ore at 11 o'clock and 5 o'clock bases by $6400 ore worth
  • Fixed some visual glitches of the bedrock at 7 o'clock
  • Fixed some visual glitches of the bedrock at 12 o'clock and 1 o'clock
  • Balanced player spawns in terms of distance to the bridges
v4
  • Fixed bedrock placement at 3 o'clock
  • Various tiles fixes (mostly at 1-2 o'clock)
  • Reduced ore patches significantly
  • Reworked ponds in the middle
  • Added more trees and other garbage to the middle to discourage building bases in the middle
v5
  • Removed barbed wire near the oil derricks at the main base
  • Lots of visual improvements. The map shouldn't contain any weird bedrock tiles anymore
v6
  • Reduced the quantity of ore
  • Each base (except the starting ones) have mines now
  • Walled up the bases with gems in the middle
  • Removed oil derricks from the middle bases with gems
  • Blocked the back entrance to the main base with walls (again)
  • Replaced gap generators with oil derricks in the center of the map
v7 & v8
  • Lots of visual improvements (many thanks to yellow who pointed out to the visual issues)
v9
  • Fixed pond in the middle
  • Added more ore
  • Widened the entrances to the gem bases
  • Widened the back entrance of the main base
v10
  • Added the third spawns, so this map can be played 3v3
v11
  • Added mines to the starting location
  • Replaced gems with ore
Attachments
snapshot20.png
snapshot20.png (385.49 KiB) Viewed 5003 times
Last edited by kyrylo on Wed Apr 15, 2015 5:41 am, edited 19 times in total.

noobmapmaker
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Post by noobmapmaker » Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:16 am

Im goig to play it, looks good!!

Are you sure you dont want to place extra startingspots so people can play 2v2 if they want?

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kyrylo
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Post by kyrylo » Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:30 am

Haha, this is the most frequent question now!

Yes, I'm going to add 2 extra spawns. The play test with Raymundo showed
that it's reasonable to play 2v2 here as well.
Last edited by kyrylo on Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

noobmapmaker
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Post by noobmapmaker » Thu Apr 09, 2015 7:10 am

Just tried it vs a bot and yes, 2v2 is possible and even 3v3! The latter especially because there is alot of money on the map with all the oil derricks. You could consider to make two versions of it: one 3v3 with all the oil derricks as it is (and people can always decide to go 2v2 on the map if they want to) and one for 2v2 with a tad less oil derricks.

To my taste 4 derricks in the main base is alot, 2 or 3 will do as well. Also in the middle there are 3 on both sides. 2 on both sides would also do.

Furthermore: add more doggies here and there!
And theres a tiny landscape glitch in the southern base next to the walls that shut of the pass.

So mostly personal tastestuff. I think the map is really nice and will give fun games.

noobmapmaker
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Post by noobmapmaker » Thu Apr 09, 2015 7:12 am

You could consider placing all 2 or 3 startingpoints together in the mainbase. Then it is totally up to the players where they drive to to start their bases.

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kyrylo
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Post by kyrylo » Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:00 am

Thanks for playing! I just uploaded version 2 of the map.
See the changelog in the original post.

I collected some feedback from the game with Raymundo.
Here's the replay: https://www.dropbox.com/s/edengyqok5ujd ... 9.rep?dl=0

I'm strongly against 3v3. I'd like the map to be more strategic (more like Haos
Ridges and less like God's Divide). So the map encourages players to expand.
I don't mind if you edit the map to your taste and upload it as a different map,
though.

I decided to remove the dogs, because they're useless. I was considering
adding them near the derricks in the middle, but the problem is when you kill them,
they produce noise, which is bad if you want to build a base there in a sneaky
beaky like fashion.

P.S. Could you show where exactly the glitch is?

yellow (theRaffy)
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Post by yellow (theRaffy) » Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:23 am

Hi,
nice map port and I even watched the replay.
When I done my Lost Temple port I used some plastic foil attached to my screen and draw the map outlines straight, on the monitor ;D
So, I know exactly what I'm talking about and how much time it consumes.

The design of the map is brilliant, and I think it works for ra as well.

I would suggest you to use the original count of bridges. (remove some)
That adds more meaning to them. and they are allowed to be a bottlenecks. And that would also make the walled sideway entrance more important. But please add at lease 1 ore mine to the starting positions.

I personally don't like the skyscraper building. I think they are not fitting at all. You don't even have concrete road but some skyscrapers in the green country life. Makes no sense to me. sry, feels ugly. So please remove them and please replace that middle city with some nice mountains and I will be happy.

The dogs are funny. But i think its more funny, if not every oil has a dog. Would remove some dogs. and some civilians around the oils. I think it's nicer if you use them as an cherry on top of the ice, and not like the waffle cone. ;)

You might heard from Aesthetics of Play: (psychology)
Here for example: (scroll a bit down)
http://www.gamedev.net/page/resources/_ ... tics-r2983
There are different aspects who can motivate you to play, and yes the list can be expanded, but that should be the core.

In my case I'm very focused to the Sense Pleasure: (visual) and if i see your tiles misplacement It makes my hair stand on end. So, I can tell you that your logic of, if it gets played, I will fix the tiles, will not work out well, because some players will see the tiles, panic and leave the game and uninstall openra. and do suicide.

ddd
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Post by ddd » Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:01 am

Does this map have special rules?

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kyrylo
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Post by kyrylo » Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:23 pm

yellow (theRaffy) wrote: Hi,
nice map port and I even watched the replay.
Thanks. The replay features the older version of the map (v1). I've made some edits since then.
yellow (theRaffy) wrote: When I done my Lost Temple port I used some plastic foil attached to my screen and draw the map outlines straight, on the monitor ;D
So, I know exactly what I'm talking about and how much time it consumes.
Hehe, I've seen your Lost Temple, it looks pretty, but I've never played there. I'm not as hardcore as you, so I simply opened the original Destination in the StarCraft map editor and used coordinates from there. It's not a one to one port and I don't aim to port it precisely. Instead, I want to make it entertaining for advanced players. The problem with a precise port is that some areas on the map are too narrow. What works for StarCraft, doesn't work for OpenRA.
yellow (theRaffy) wrote: I would suggest you to use the original count of bridges. (remove some)
That adds more meaning to them. and they are allowed to be a bottlenecks. And that would also make the walled sideway entrance more important. But please add at lease 1 ore mine to the starting positions.
I have removed the walls, because again, what works for StarCraft, doesn't work for OpenRA. The problem with the walls is that you cannot destroy them silently. Your opponent will be able to hear shooting.

At the moment, I'm happy with 3 bridges. The throughput is quite good. I'm not sure about 2 bridges, because the game might lag and it would be frustrating to attack. However, I need more information (that is, more games played on the map) to make the final decision.

What's the deal with mines, anyway? You're not the first one to ask that. In v2 of the map the initial base has $16000 worth of ore. It should be enough to bootstrap your base and build a construction yard. I might add more ore, but again, I need more games to be played (and feedback), because currently 16k is just a wild guess.
yellow (theRaffy) wrote: I personally don't like the skyscraper building. I think they are not fitting at all. You don't even have concrete road but some skyscrapers in the green country life. Makes no sense to me. sry, feels ugly. So please remove them and please replace that middle city with some nice mountains and I will be happy.
Yeah, they're a bit off. The problem is that we don't have concrete roads in the tileset of the map. I definitely don't want to add mountains, because they would prevent movement. And the middle area is the place where could show off your massive army, so it must be a plane. On the contrary, I want it to look more interesting, not just grass.
yellow (theRaffy) wrote: The dogs are funny. But i think its more funny, if not every oil has a dog. Would remove some dogs. and some civilians around the oils. I think it's nicer if you use them as an cherry on top of the ice, and not like the waffle cone. ;)
I have removed the dogs altogether. To put a cherry on top of the ice, you first need to have some ice =) I'm really interested in economics. That is, how much ore is needed to be able to cover different strategies.
yellow (theRaffy) wrote: You might heard from Aesthetics of Play: (psychology)
Here for example: (scroll a bit down)
http://www.gamedev.net/page/resources/_ ... tics-r2983
There are different aspects who can motivate you to play, and yes the list can be expanded, but that should be the core.

In my case I'm very focused to the Sense Pleasure: (visual) and if i see your tiles misplacement It makes my hair stand on end. So, I can tell you that your logic of, if it gets played, I will fix the tiles, will not work out well, because some players will see the tiles, panic and leave the game and uninstall openra. and do suicide.
Hehe, thanks for the link. Don't be mad at me, please. The map doesn't look very terrible from the aesthetics point of view, although it does have visual issues. I believe that fixing them right now isn't very important. The priority is to balance ore and chokepoints. Be sure that suicide won't save you. We have some high quality medics at the hospitals in the middle of the map ;-)

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kyrylo
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Post by kyrylo » Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:25 pm

ddd wrote: Does this map have special rules?
No, it doesn't.

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raymundo
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Post by raymundo » Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:42 pm

Hey, again, nice job on the map. It seems the starting ore is enough, even for 2 people. I played a single player game and ONLY mined one patch in the starting base,using 2/4 derricks, and this was what it yielded me: http://i.imgur.com/byWxkYw.jpg

You could possibly add a bit more in the starting zones(10-15%), but it should be obvious to most players, that without mines in the base they will have to take a new position on the map.

What about having a gap generator by each hospital, as well as the one in the middle?

noobmapmaker
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Post by noobmapmaker » Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:48 pm

kyrylo wrote:
I have removed the walls, because again, what works for StarCraft, doesn't work for OpenRA. The problem with the walls is that you cannot destroy them silently. Your opponent will be able to hear shooting.

At the moment, I'm happy with 3 bridges. The throughput is quite good. I'm not sure about 2 bridges, because the game might lag and it would be frustrating to attack. However, I need more information (that is, more games played on the map) to make the final decision.
Not to push you in any direction, do as you like, but Im very sure that even 1 bridge wont cause lag. There is plenty of space for the routing around the lakes to go if needed. There are many other maps who have much much tighter spaces as the only route that do not lag.

And for not getting alarmed: in some cases that is actually part of the play imo! You could use it by shooting a doggy wit a plane to make someone think you go there or you just have to deal with it.
Ive had games where I was silently building a base when all of a sudden a tank drove over barbed wire, making a sound and making me cringe. Wasnt even sure if my opponent knew where it came from or noticed it at all.

As for the glitch: to lazy to post an image :) just look at the walls in the lower base. Right next to the wall youve placed a rock on top of a cliff. Youll see it when you inspect the walls.

noobmapmaker
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Post by noobmapmaker » Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:52 pm

upon further inspection...

Not very important ofcourse. And a little trick if you dont really want to change something because the landscape HAS to be there: plant a big tree in front of it so it covers up the glitch (partly).

Image

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kyrylo
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Post by kyrylo » Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:06 pm

raymundo wrote: Hey, again, nice job on the map. It seems the starting ore is enough, even for 2 people. I played a single player game and ONLY mined one patch in the starting base,using 2/4 derricks, and this was what it yielded me: http://i.imgur.com/byWxkYw.jpg

You could possibly add a bit more in the starting zones(10-15%), but it should be obvious to most players, that without mines in the base they will have to take a new position on the map.

What about having a gap generator by each hospital, as well as the one in the middle?
I have already released version 2, so the map has much less ore now. Each base has about $16000 ore worth (sometimes slightly less and sometimes slightly more) and the areas with gems have about $30-40k ore worth each (maybe even more, I have already forgotten :-); but they're really vital now). It's really hard to balance ore with wild guesses, though. I wish Nukem'Bro came here and magically told me how he reasoned the quantity of ore on his maps :-).

Gap generators? You mean, here (marked with red dots)?

Image

Well, sounds reasonable. I will probably add them in the next version.

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kyrylo
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Post by kyrylo » Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:16 pm

noobmapmaker wrote: Not to push you in any direction, do as you like, but Im very sure that even 1 bridge wont cause lag. There is plenty of space for the routing around the lakes to go if needed. There are many other maps who have much much tighter spaces as the only route that do not lag.
Even if it doesn't lag, it might be the case that if you want to attack the main base with decent forces, you have to pass through 2 bridges. During that time your army is extremely vulnerable, because everyone has different speeds.

In your opinion, what are the pros of having 2 bridges instead of 3?
noobmapmaker wrote: And for not getting alarmed: in some cases that is actually part of the play imo! You could use it by shooting a doggy wit a plane to make someone think you go there or you just have to deal with it.
Ive had games where I was silently building a base when all of a sudden a tank drove over barbed wire, making a sound and making me cringe. Wasnt even sure if my opponent knew where it came from or noticed it at all.
Exactly! I don't want to gamble, I want a map that takes skill to win, not just luck :-P
noobmapmaker wrote: As for the glitch: to lazy to post an image :) just look at the walls in the lower base. Right next to the wall youve placed a rock on top of a cliff. Youll see it when you inspect the walls.
Thanks, that area has slightly changed in version 2, but the glitch with the rocks is still there.

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