Lets discuss Shock Troopers (Red Alert)

[r34ch]

It's the Ukrainians that are too weak, Demo Truck is just too long to build and often not worth it

I think it's rather an indication that Soviets overall are too weak, and currently this single OP unit is what makes Russia comfortable to play against allies 1v1 while ukraine still struggles.

The shockies balance aside for one moment, there are no other soviet units that can be massed so effectively with flaks to deal with massed RS/arty/hind. None. V2s splash and RoF is pretty poor against infantry and tanks. The Yak is almost useless against inf (RNG kamakazi aside) and flaks and tanks just cannot weather massed arty or RS fire.

Nerf shockies please, but buff these other units to compensate.

[FiveAces]

You have a good point, but I think the real reason behind why Sovs are perceived as weaker is their high demand on micromanagement.
I play both factions, and currently have a much higher winrate as Sovs.

Allies are easier to play: defend your Arties and let them wreck everything with autofire - especially if they have a NavSat up.
Sovs, on the other hand, rely on finesse: Kamikaze Yaks, for example, have to be controlled precisely to be effective (and this is a pretty cool feature with a high skill cap imo).
V2s can be incredibly useful, but I've found out that to make them work you have to switch their stance to "hold fire".
Then as the arties are set up, run a V2 in, let it take a shot, and haul ass.

I'd like to keep their theme as a micro-intensive faction by nerfing Shock health and armor so that you actually have to build Heavies as a damage soak
while your Shocks dish out the damage from 6 cells away.

[Prince Blueblood]

Maybe you're all right though, Soviets in general is the one who are too weak...

Yeah, after re-thinking it, I now think that it's weird where the Soviets in OpenRA are the micro-heavy factions (without the now -you-say-OP-Shockies-) while originally in RA, RA2, and still in RA3, the Soviets are always the brute force and requiring less micro factions.

Maybe it's because their heavy tank cost a fortune compared to their original pricings... $1150 is just tad too expensive with relatively slow movement, and still not so good health...

And maybe because V2 Launcher has shorter range than Arty as well, while their ROF is much slower too (despite their damage), but yeah, this obviously needs microing...

Maybe in this regard, we could nerf Shockies a bit and make them more expensive, in exchange of more affordable heavy tanks (to tank the damage), to maybe $1000

And maybe swap the range and ownership of V2 and Arty, so soviet get nerfed Artys and Allies get boosted up V2... or what?

Or maybe add Soviet Planes abilities to attack air, maybe Yaks to compensate the fact that it's Hind spotters who are the bane of Soviet ground forces...

OR OR OR OR AAARRRGGGHHH

Or just keep the Shockies OP and boost something in Ukrainian side, that should do that... Afterall, teching up to shockies need either teammate cover or actually misleading or making your allied enemy busy...

Yeah, I do now feel something is not right. Yes, currently Russians have balanced lategame meta compared to allies, but it hinges literally on the OP shockies...

[Murto the Ray]

Why not just reduce the range of arty down to that of a v2, meaning they both evade defences with their range but have to be close enough that you can deflect them with the assistance of your defences.

[r34ch]

You have a good point, but I think the real reason behind why Sovs are perceived as weaker is their high demand on micromanagement.

Fair, but I think small buffs to the Yak and V2 wouldn't reduce the micro, just make those units a little more forgiving in comparison to the hind and arty. You still have to V2 snipe and Yak strafe intelligently but you could use them in different roles when the situation calls for it. Something the soviets really struggle with, especially if the shockie gets nerfed.

I think that could help with RS spam and in turn make heavies (a little) more viable to actually tank.

That said, what are your opinions on soviets inability to deal with allied air units over water?

[zinc]

The shock troopers are probably over-powered.

What I think does need to be improved a little on the Soviet side is V2 and also their AA SAM thing.

V2 could maybe have a little more range and be able to take out more troops.

[noobmapmaker]

Or the heavy tank a little +... Who uses heavy tanks?

[Prince Blueblood]

Or the heavy tank a little +... Who uses heavy tanks?

the single, overpriced, too weak, and often not worth it tanks who absolutely get destroyed by almost equal numbers of medium tanks (who could circle around them, if I must add).

Yeah, nobody is using Soviet Heavy tanks except in a particular move against artillery push (and even that's not too good).

Flak Truck is not good for the job, but they are faster and could damage artilleries really fast, even if their armor is filmsy. So that's why you see tons of flak trucks "screens" in any soviet forces, while maybe some mammoths and little to no heavy tanks (because their niche is now too particular).

And yeah, a fuckton of Shock Troopers, but still, they are now the Soviet's new tanks, even if that doesn't really make sense.

So yeah, boost V2 and heavy tanks, you can nerf shock troopers afterwards

[Prince Blueblood]

Maybe we should agree first on a testing ground, kinda a rule-modified map that nerf Shockies yet buff some other soviet toys... If some of you agree I will try to upload a modified map with the required YAML so we can test it in multiplayer environments


Proposed rule changes so far :

Shock Troopers:
- Cost raised from 400 to 500
- HP reduced from 100 to 80

Heavy Tank:
- Cost reduced from 1150 to 1000
- Health raised from 550 to 580

V2 Rocket Launcher:
- Cost raised from 900 to 1150
- Speed reduced from 85 to 71 (on par with heavy tanks)
- Scud range increased from 10 to 14 (equal range with allied artillery)

Artillery:
- Cost raised from 800 to 1050

anymore input?

[AoAGeneral1]

Keep in mind when you reduce the cost of a unit the build time of the unit also decreases.

So you could be buffing the heavy tanks way to much with faster building and nerfing the artillery way to much by increasing their building time.

[Prince Blueblood]

Keep in mind when you reduce the cost of a unit the build time of the unit also decreases.

So you could be buffing the heavy tanks way to much with faster building and nerfing the artillery way to much by increasing their building time.

hmm, good consideration though, but yeah, I'm in opinion of Tanks should be the main battle tanks, so the heavy tanks being fast to build is being considered... but yeah, maybe I overpriced the artillery so...

Soviet adjustments :

Shock Troopers: (still viable Russian late game unit, just not too spammable or to OP against anti-infantry measures)
- Cost raised from 400 to 500
- HP reduced from 100 to 80

Heavy Tank: (they should be the main battle tank for soviets)
- Cost reduced from 1150 to 1000
- Health raised from 550 to 575

V2 Rocket Launcher:
- Cost raised from 900 to 1050
- Speed reduced from 85 to 71 (on par with heavy tanks)
- Scud range increased from 10 to 14 (equal range with allied artillery)

Tesla Tank:
- Sight range increased from 7 to 8
- Health raised from 400 to 450

Ukrainians get buffed
MAD Tank : ( nobody use them, so they shall be cheaper, more durable Ukrainian demolition when Demo Trucks is available)
- Only available to Ukraine
- Only need Repair pad to be made
- Cost reduced from 2000 to 1600

Allied Adjustments :

Light Tank: (being cheaper to counter the heavy tank being cheaper, they're weak in tank to tank battle so no big deal)
- Cost reduced from 700 to 650

Artillery:
- Cost raised from 800 to 950
- Explode chance reduced from 75 to 50

anymore input?

[noobmapmaker]

My feeling is that this makes v2s to strong. I think their speed and range is good at the moment. I would keep the current V 2 stats, all other buffs and nerfs are fine imo.

And a slight splatter damage for the yaks would be nice. Not a big one, but a bit.

And +150 for artillery is alot. +75 or +100 should already make a change considering that it takes longer and more $$$. Since Time = Money this is a double nerf

[zinc]

With V2 I would keep the speed the same, and increase the range a bit, but not quite as much as artie. I don't know if there is a way to increase its troop killing ability without also increasing its damage to buildings?

With yaks also it would be nice if they were a bit better at killing troops.

[Prince Blueblood]

Final Change (I've uploaded the map after make sure the changes work, just wait) - Please please please, test the map with some games and share the replays so we can anaylze the game (and metagame) from valid MP battles (NOT AGAINST BOTS)

SOVIETS

Shock Troopers : The nerfed one, should be less massable (more expensive) and more vulnerable to anti infantry measures now
- Cost raised from 400 to 500
- HP reduced from 100 to 80

Heavy Tanks : Should be used far more in Soviet Army (instead of being practically non existent)
- Cost reduced from 1150 to 1000
- HP raised from 550 to 575

V2 Launcher: Outrange the arty, but significantly more expensive as well as slower
- Cost raised from 900 to 1150
- Speed reduced from 85 to 71
- SCUD range raised from 10 to 15
- SCUD min range raised from 3 to 4

Tesla Tank : Slight buff
- HP raised from 400 to 440

MAD Tank : Specific to Ukraine, give them boost so there's incentive to use them more
- Ukraine specific
- Prequisite reduced, now produceable from Weap + Fix, medium level tech
- Cost reduced from 2000 to 1750


ALLIES

Artillery : Nerfed a bit, should make Allies concentrate on tanks and more direct fighting a bit more, but artillery tricks should still works.
- Cost raised from 800 to 950

Light Tank : should stay the cheapest, spam-friendly tank to counter more soviet heavy tanks.
- Cost reduced from 700 to 650

[Prince Blueblood]

Alright here we go...
http://resource.openra.net/maps/3730/

The map is modified in this contains no Tech buildings (so economy are purely by harvesting ore), there's more ore in exchange though, and the purpose for this map is for testing so... yeah...