Lets discuss Shock Troopers (Red Alert)

Post by **Murto the Ray** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 6:43 pm

Chrono tanks can crush infantry and have a lot of maneuverability at their disposal, medium tanks do not; lower the price but the stats should be the same. And yaks and hinds don't make much sense vs an allied army with AA turrets at their disposal and will usually end up in some awful trade-offs.

Perhaps we are missing something here; what kind of missile are we talking about? a rapid firing missile capable of real destruction vs a mass of yaks or hinds, or a single, powerful missile which fires at short range (i.e. to hinds/yaks just above it) instead of the main sea-to-land missile with the same delay which is what i am imagining. Also, cruisers have a larger spread with a few more shots than a missile sub; missile sub missiles are designed for taking down buildings as they can be easily dodged, cruisers suit an all-round role much better. Cruisers also have twice the health of missile subs despite being just as expensive.

Finally, pushing a build out of competitive viability has nothing to do with balance, for example; a ranger-based build is pushed out of viability due to the fact that there are so many units and defences that counter them, that doesn't mean other units should have to suffer nerfs just so i can go wild with rangers. Hinds/Longbows have a long range of vision and are quite slow therefore they suit control over aggression and trying to be aggressive with them wouldn't work in a competitive setting. Im all for making units usable (such as armor which is suffering badly atm) but when it comes to making builds usable it just stirs things up a bit too much for me.

At the end of the day Red Alert is a big game of chess, certain openings are far better than others but can sometimes be countered by unintuitive openings which can thwart conventional openings and so the game evolves. The meta at the moment isnt how things will always be, if it were left for a year the tactics and strategies would have changed from what they are now as people would have had time to get good at the game before large balance changes like the ones you two are putting forwards come in to place to stir things up again.

squirrel · Post by **squirrel** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:08 pm

Nerf the Shock Trooper HP maybe? They are like "Terminators", haha

Post by **Murto the Ray** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 8:23 pm

Ok, fair enough; i'd like to see how medium armor works out and also a price reduction would be in order. Then, if its a bit OP it can be reduced until perfection.

r34ch · Post by **r34ch** » Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:39 pm

I still think incremental changes would be easier to test and feedback on (although I do agree with many of the balance suggestions). Personally I think the factions should be balanced out before we change other units.

Shocktroopers are probably going to be nerfed in some fashion next release. With Russia getting nerfed I think England and France should be buffed.

Englands phase transport could be buffed to become hit and run units - like NOD stealth tanks but not as ridiculous. Their DPM is far too low at the moment to be anything but an invisible spy / tanya / engi transport.

Frances fake structures could take damage at the normal rate of its real version, but die at a much lower percentage of the real versions health. This would stop a single rifle burst discerning your real silo and your fake.

It doesn't have to be those changes, but something to buff England and France in respect to Germany now that Russia will be a little more equal to Ukraine.

Prince Blueblood · Post by **Prince Blueblood** » Wed Sep 30, 2015 3:28 am

r34ch wrote: ↑I still think incremental changes would be easier to test and feedback on (although I do agree with many of the balance suggestions). Personally I think the factions should be balanced out before we change other units.

Shocktroopers are probably going to be nerfed in some fashion next release. With Russia getting nerfed I think England and France should be buffed.

Englands phase transport could be buffed to become hit and run units - like NOD stealth tanks but not as ridiculous. Their DPM is far too low at the moment to be anything but an invisible spy / tanya / engi transport.

Frances fake structures could take damage at the normal rate of its real version, but die at a much lower percentage of the real versions health. This would stop a single rifle burst discerning your real silo and your fake.

It doesn't have to be those changes, but something to buff England and France in respect to Germany now that Russia will be a little more equal to Ukraine.

The problem with fake buildings being almost as strong as the real one is twofold, the first is fake buildings of Weapons Factory / Construction Yard will make a very efficient wall / blocker, and the second is fake buildings are actually more useful when used strategically than in real combat.

But yeah, add capabilities to build more than one fake silo will be good.

AoAGeneral1 · Post by **AoAGeneral1** » Wed Sep 30, 2015 4:55 am

I agree with Zinc as well when it comes to balance testing. Although the few times ive played RA its difficult for me to understand it because im used to using units vs other unit compositions. (As Yellow promptly destroys me in RA regardless)

But thats the real test is 1v1. I do think shockies is to strong though. Looking through the values of the units I find the following:

Shock Troopers: 100 hp at 400 costing. Range 5c0 shroud reveal.
Armament: PortaTesla. damage 45. Range 6c0

------

Tanya: 100hp at 1200 costing. Range 6c0 reveal shroud.
Armament: Colt45. damage 50. Range 7c0.

-----

Essentially a dedicated anti infantry unit such as Tanya would take 3 zaps and dead. (<<< Not true read edit) Currently because of their large hp pool they would require to be shot 3+ times to kill one. (3+ shots because of the bullet mechanic travel and proning increases armor).

I also agree with FiveAces in adding in a 1-2 cell travel of them getting up. But I would also prefer a double click mechanic that existed in CNC95 and RA98 which essentially was a bug. But double clicking rapidly forced the infantry out of prone and made them run. This worked greatly when running from other infantry or base charging with infantry. IE: Flame infantry.

EDIT: Interesting to note as well infantry have no armor. which leaves me confused as the vs modifiers is left blank so it should only do 45 damage to infantry and not an instant kill. Yes they instantly kill Tanya's as well. E1, Medics, and E2 (Grenadiers) should all survive at least the shot. Could this be the problem with shockies maybe that they just kill certian units ignoring modifiers?

EDIT2: Just did some tests vs vehicles and the damages come out correct. Its only the infantry they ignore and are instantly killing for some reason. Am I missing something maybe?

EDIT3: Just knocked shockies damage to 1 and fired at a Tanya. It took a shockie 19 shots to kill Tanya. From the Tesla Tanks it took 17 shots to kill Tanya at damage of 1.

Post by **Murto the Ray** » Wed Sep 30, 2015 6:03 am

Shock troopers do 1000% damage versus units with no armor:

Versus:
None: 1000

Same with the tesla tank

r34ch · Post by **r34ch** » Wed Sep 30, 2015 6:53 am

Prince Blueblood wrote: ↑The problem with fake buildings being almost as strong as the real one

build more than one fake silo will be good.

Prince Blueblood I did not suggest either of those as that would make France incredibly OP. Please reread my modest proposal.

zinc wrote: ↑1v1 games ... I'm not sure Russia is always going to be winning because of them

I'm gonna come out and say it.

There is currently no skill involved in playing Russia.

No strategy in build orders
Since flaks and shockies effectively counter all air and ground, you don't have to make decisions about what unit you are going to build next. Other factions have to choose specific units depending on the situation. Do I build anti armour or ranged base attack from my WF? anti air or anti inf from the barracks? Shockies are so multirole (damage soak, anti inf, anti armour and anti base) they remove this strategy

Cheap and quickly massed attacks
Iron curtains recharge every two minutes. Shockies and flaks are insanely cheap ($400/$500). In the time it takes to recharge the curtain, you can amass another full size attack force. No other faction can rapidly amass such an effective army in that time. Russia is a cheap tech cheese faction. Don't even need to invest in a silo.

Low eco is not an issue
Late game when money is an issue, no other faction has such bang-for-their-buck. This also removes much of the skill of deciding what units to use late game since the IC flaks and shockies are still just as effective in smaller numbers.

Counters are easily countered
V2s, artys, tanya, Hinds, Yaks, demos(?) are all countered so easily by IC'd flaks. Tanya in a pillbox can only survive so long. If you defend that engagement, the next attack in 2 minutes will include a couple V2s.

Prince Blueblood · Post by **Prince Blueblood** » Wed Sep 30, 2015 7:49 am

I think fake building is good enough now even if they could be discrened by simple riflemen firing upon them. I against strenghtening the fakes actually, except with tossing another fake silo in order.

Now, when you're alone or in FFA, fake buildings admittedly useful only for short term in confusing your opponents. And it was good enough with proper macro planning (if your enemy hit your base too soon, he's either rushing or he's baiting you) so raid to discern which buildings are fakes are fine.

The real strength of fake buildings is in the team games, where you could practically pop buildings out of your Ally's shared CY build radius one. And put the fakes in considerably "protected" position would help your enemy to be misdirected into attacking the other thing when you kick him in the ass...

r34ch wrote: ↑ There is currently no skill involved in playing Russia.

No strategy in build orders
Since flaks and shockies effectively counter all air and ground, you don't have to make decisions about what unit you are going to build next. Other factions have to choose specific units depending on the situation. Do I build anti armour or ranged base attack from my WF? anti air or anti inf from the barracks? Shockies are so multirole (damage soak, anti inf, anti armour and anti base) they remove this strategy

Cheap and quickly massed attacks
Iron curtains recharge every two minutes. Shockies and flaks are insanely cheap ($400/$500). In the time it takes to recharge the curtain, you can amass another full size attack force. No other faction can rapidly amass such an effective army in that time. Russia is a cheap tech cheese faction. Don't even need to invest in a silo.

Low eco is not an issue
Late game when money is an issue, no other faction has such bang-for-their-buck. This also removes much of the skill of deciding what units to use late game since the IC flaks and shockies are still just as effective in smaller numbers.

Counters are easily countered
V2s, artys, tanya, Hinds, Yaks, demos(?) are all countered so easily by IC'd flaks. Tanya in a pillbox can only survive so long. If you defend that engagement, the next attack will include a couple V2s.

Basically flak trucks is fine with me, but yes, the shockies is indeed the main muscle of late Russian spam.

There's one VERY EFFECTIVE counter on them though, that's don't let them build any kind of tech lab at the first place.

Let them suffer from expensive armor, Yaks that must get properly microed, and wittle under artillery spam

AoAGeneral1 · Post by **AoAGeneral1** » Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:30 am

Should the versus none = 1000 be removed then?

Testing RA98 the infantry did take a few shots before being electrocuted.

Found an example video as well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0WTwyFjVJ8

Post by **Murto the Ray** » Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:35 am

IC'd APCs work very well vs shock troopers; if you haven't tried that i suggest you do.

Fahrrad · Post by **Fahrrad** » Fri Oct 16, 2015 11:08 pm

the best way to stop a shock trooper + flak truck juggernaut army is a fucking wall. The enemy had to pull back and I had time to build a demo truck. Good bye shock troopers!

PersianImmortal · Post by **PersianImmortal** » Sat Oct 17, 2015 12:11 am

Mammoth tank and riflemen spam for lifeeeeee
Fuck your shock troopers

newwe · Post by **newwe** » Sat Oct 17, 2015 3:59 am

Taylor, you're alive? I thought you got mixed up with an Chicago crime family and your firm had you murdered or something.

And yeah, not sure mammoths+rifles>shocks+IC'd flaks.

PersianImmortal · Post by **PersianImmortal** » Sat Oct 17, 2015 1:16 pm

newwe wrote: ↑Taylor, you're alive? I thought you got mixed up with an Chicago crime family and your firm had you murdered or something.

And yeah, not sure mammoths+rifles>shocks+IC'd flaks.

They haven't had me killed yet. Had a few close calls but I made it out unscathed lol.

I never understood the appeal of flak trucks. They're so lackluster imo and yeah shocks are great and all but if you're letting your opponent mass flak trucks and shocks you're doing something wrong.
As Soviet or allies going against Russia you should be pressuring the fuck out of them the entire game.

Also going to throw out the fact that if the soviets had better faction choice shock trooper spam wouldn't be as big of a deal. Ukraine blows. Plain and simple. Give me a soviet faction with air to air migs and longer ranged SAMs as its perks. Go ahead and take away paratroops and the flak truck to balance it. I'd play that faction all day.

OpenRA

Lets discuss Shock Troopers (Red Alert)

Do you think shock troopers should be nerfed?