The early game with flame tanks is strong but only to unexpected players. If the player is expecting them its an easy stop. Both flame tanks and medium tanks require the com center so its at a completely even tech level. You can also use rocket infantry against them only just spread them out greatly and they will do the damage. Gun turrets are also an excellent choice because of their high rate of fire and armor.
Late game they are still on the situational side. Depending on what is built vs GDI you can still use flame tanks as backdoor attacks.
vs Nod you can use them as bombers vs light vehicles (AKA bike buggy combos.) While the bike can out range the flame tanks they still have to push back while keeping your light tanks and infantry in the back doing the push. Or again as backdoor attacks.
Air units itself is currently on hold because im waiting to see if air units will be loading at the airpad much like CNC95. This is being looked at on the RA side.
TD balance thread
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AoAGeneral1
- Posts: 597
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:11 pm
On monday I will be doing some testing on the following:
Temple of nod, adv com center, com center detection radius increase from 5c0 to 10c0. (Add detection to temple.)
artillery range increased from 11c0 to 12c0.
guard tower damage vs heavy reduced from 30 to 15.
mammoth tank HP increase from 800 to 850.
ion time increase from 3:00 to 4:30.
nuke timer from 5 to 6.
nuke damage spread from 2c512 to 5c512.
a10 timer increased from 3:30 to 4:00.
MSAM HP from 120 to 180.
Commando weapon range increased from 6c0 to 8c0.
Commando weapon projectile speed increased from 1c682 to 5c682.
Command price increase from 1000 to 2000.
Husks interval timer increased from 2 to 7.
MRLS minimum range increased from 3c0 to 4c0.
Bike damage increase from 30 to 31.
Chem damage vs none reduced from 100 to 50.
Chem damage vs armor increased from 50 to 75.
Grenadier accuracy reduced from 213 to 1c0. (Makes them miss a lot more)
Flamer damage vs armor reduced from 20 to 10.
Harv build timer increase from 24 to 26.
Refinery power reduced from 50 to 40.
Refinery sell no longer refunds.
AGT HP from 600 to 550.
Light Tank price reduced from 700 to 650.
Visceroid spawn reduce from 10 to 5.
Increase all building HP by 100.
Increase Harvester HP. (Currently testing values).
Gun turret HP increase. (Currently testing values).
Obelisk Mechanic https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/issues/11415 (Still needs work)
Grenadier/Chem Mechanic https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/issues/11409 (Still needs work)
Temple of nod, adv com center, com center detection radius increase from 5c0 to 10c0. (Add detection to temple.)
artillery range increased from 11c0 to 12c0.
guard tower damage vs heavy reduced from 30 to 15.
mammoth tank HP increase from 800 to 850.
ion time increase from 3:00 to 4:30.
nuke timer from 5 to 6.
nuke damage spread from 2c512 to 5c512.
a10 timer increased from 3:30 to 4:00.
MSAM HP from 120 to 180.
Commando weapon range increased from 6c0 to 8c0.
Commando weapon projectile speed increased from 1c682 to 5c682.
Command price increase from 1000 to 2000.
Husks interval timer increased from 2 to 7.
MRLS minimum range increased from 3c0 to 4c0.
Bike damage increase from 30 to 31.
Chem damage vs none reduced from 100 to 50.
Chem damage vs armor increased from 50 to 75.
Grenadier accuracy reduced from 213 to 1c0. (Makes them miss a lot more)
Flamer damage vs armor reduced from 20 to 10.
Harv build timer increase from 24 to 26.
Refinery power reduced from 50 to 40.
Refinery sell no longer refunds.
AGT HP from 600 to 550.
Light Tank price reduced from 700 to 650.
Visceroid spawn reduce from 10 to 5.
Increase all building HP by 100.
Increase Harvester HP. (Currently testing values).
Gun turret HP increase. (Currently testing values).
Obelisk Mechanic https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/issues/11415 (Still needs work)
Grenadier/Chem Mechanic https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/issues/11409 (Still needs work)
reduced mcv buildtime would be nice too.
i think grenadiers are good with their current accuracy and could even have faster grenades to make them bit more useful vs light vehicles. you want to make them vs structures only with 1c0?
commando ideas are great.
the make silos bit more important idea was nice too, maybe that together with small ref and harvester changes?
why changing all the support power timer?
i think grenadiers are good with their current accuracy and could even have faster grenades to make them bit more useful vs light vehicles. you want to make them vs structures only with 1c0?
commando ideas are great.
the make silos bit more important idea was nice too, maybe that together with small ref and harvester changes?
why changing all the support power timer?
Is removing the delay for building off your MCV conceivable now with the expensive MCV? I understand the reason for its use I just can't get over every time I have to wait for placing something down for whatever reason, I just spam click the spot and roll my eyes until its placed. It's super annoying and feels like a feature that'll never be more than a cheap fix.
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AoAGeneral1
- Posts: 597
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:11 pm
Ah right silos. Forgot to add that.
Refinery tiberium hold reduced from 2000 to 700.
I will test the MCV build times.
Grenadiers has been a fun mechanic to play with. You would think that it would make them worse but it doesn't. The splash damage actually makes them more affective vs infantry and vehicles. Because of the miss it still lands its target due to the splash and does decent damage to even armored vehicles. It also makes dodging a bit trickier with vehicles.
The main reason the grenadiers are getting an accuracy nerf is because its to accurate for infantry blobs. They throw everything on a single target and it only kills one infantry and maybe 3 in the same square. With them missing it gets the blob.
Support power timers are changing because as anjew mentioned. It also helps to prevent of getting an army set and having them all lost quickly again. IE: Mammoth tank off one factory is 0:36. If you build two off one factory then its 1:12. An ion can effectively kill 5-6 mammoth tanks easily in one shot. Now if you factor that in with team games lol.
The delay on the MCV is still needed because in team games when a team mate deploys the MCV all of the allies would be able to instantly deploy defense structures all around the structure quickly. This also can be dangerous if multiple MCVs are still build as well. More easily exploitable in team games.
I should also mention about the building HP increase that it does not count towards defense structures.
Refinery tiberium hold reduced from 2000 to 700.
I will test the MCV build times.
Grenadiers has been a fun mechanic to play with. You would think that it would make them worse but it doesn't. The splash damage actually makes them more affective vs infantry and vehicles. Because of the miss it still lands its target due to the splash and does decent damage to even armored vehicles. It also makes dodging a bit trickier with vehicles.
The main reason the grenadiers are getting an accuracy nerf is because its to accurate for infantry blobs. They throw everything on a single target and it only kills one infantry and maybe 3 in the same square. With them missing it gets the blob.
Support power timers are changing because as anjew mentioned. It also helps to prevent of getting an army set and having them all lost quickly again. IE: Mammoth tank off one factory is 0:36. If you build two off one factory then its 1:12. An ion can effectively kill 5-6 mammoth tanks easily in one shot. Now if you factor that in with team games lol.
The delay on the MCV is still needed because in team games when a team mate deploys the MCV all of the allies would be able to instantly deploy defense structures all around the structure quickly. This also can be dangerous if multiple MCVs are still build as well. More easily exploitable in team games.
I should also mention about the building HP increase that it does not count towards defense structures.
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AoAGeneral1
- Posts: 597
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:11 pm
The list is updated. Some tests are still being done so any feedback is needed. Otherwise by next week I will start working on implementing.
Temple of nod, adv com center, com center detection radius increase from 5c0 to 10c0. (Add detection to temple.)
artillery range increased from 11c0 to 12c0.
guard tower damage vs heavy reduced from 30 to 15.
mammoth tank HP increase from 800 to 850.
ion time increase from 3:00 to 4:30.
nuke timer from 5 to 6.
nuke damage spread from 2c512 to 5c512.
nuke spread damage increased from 100 to 110. (First spread modifier)
a10 timer increased from 3:30 to 4:00.
MSAM HP from 120 to 180.
Commando weapon range increased from 6c0 to 8c0.
Commando weapon projectile speed increased from 1c682 to 5c682.
Commando price increase from 1000 to 2000.
Commando build time increased from 24 to 48.
Husks interval timer increased from 2 to 7.
MRLS minimum range increased from 3c0 to 4c0.
Bike damage increase from 30 to 31.
Chem damage vs none reduced from 100 to 50.
Chem damage vs armor increased from 50 to 75.
Grenadier accuracy reduced from 213 to 1c0. (Makes them miss a lot more).
Flame damage vs armor reduced from 20 to 10. (Flame infantry)
Flame damage vs none increased from 100 to 110. (Flame infantry)
Harv build timer increase from 24 to 27.
Harvester HP increase from 600 to 625.
Refinery power reduced from 50 to 40.
Refinery sell no longer refunds.
Refinery tiberium hold reduced from 2000 to 700.
Silo hold increase from 2000 to 3000.
AGT HP from 600 to 550.
Light Tank price reduced from 700 to 650.
Visceroid spawn reduce from 10 to 5.
Increase all building HP by 100. (Exception of defense structures)
Gun turret HP increase from 400 to 410.
Starting units adjusted. (See notes below)
MCV build time decreased from 1:36 to 1:12.
Obelisk Mechanic https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/issues/11415 (Still needs work)
Grenadier/Chem Mechanic https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/issues/11409 (Still needs work)
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NOTES:
The MCV build time mentioned by Norman is something ive been playing around with. With the strength of the nuke its a better idea to reduce the time on the MCV play. Bringing down the AGT HP pool might help in these situations as well as the use of artillery. Consideration is needed however with the past of massing defense structures. The refinery and harv changes will be watched in these effects.
Starting units! This is a big one. Nod and GDI will no longer spawn random units (Under light support). They will now spawn a fixed amount. The following is as listed:
GDI light support spawns:
Humvee.
5 minigunners.
2 rocket infantry.
Nod light support spawns:
Buggy.
6 minigunners.
2 rocket infantry.
--------------
Originally with the buggy you get 3 rocket infantry and 3 minigunners. However, if the player spawns as GDI its a possible to easily mass up starting minigunners and catch the Nod player with higher numbers. While the buggy has less HP then the humvee you do get an extra minigunners and these infantry can kill light vehicles quickly if in the right place.
Temple of nod, adv com center, com center detection radius increase from 5c0 to 10c0. (Add detection to temple.)
artillery range increased from 11c0 to 12c0.
guard tower damage vs heavy reduced from 30 to 15.
mammoth tank HP increase from 800 to 850.
ion time increase from 3:00 to 4:30.
nuke timer from 5 to 6.
nuke damage spread from 2c512 to 5c512.
nuke spread damage increased from 100 to 110. (First spread modifier)
a10 timer increased from 3:30 to 4:00.
MSAM HP from 120 to 180.
Commando weapon range increased from 6c0 to 8c0.
Commando weapon projectile speed increased from 1c682 to 5c682.
Commando price increase from 1000 to 2000.
Commando build time increased from 24 to 48.
Husks interval timer increased from 2 to 7.
MRLS minimum range increased from 3c0 to 4c0.
Bike damage increase from 30 to 31.
Chem damage vs none reduced from 100 to 50.
Chem damage vs armor increased from 50 to 75.
Grenadier accuracy reduced from 213 to 1c0. (Makes them miss a lot more).
Flame damage vs armor reduced from 20 to 10. (Flame infantry)
Flame damage vs none increased from 100 to 110. (Flame infantry)
Harv build timer increase from 24 to 27.
Harvester HP increase from 600 to 625.
Refinery power reduced from 50 to 40.
Refinery sell no longer refunds.
Refinery tiberium hold reduced from 2000 to 700.
Silo hold increase from 2000 to 3000.
AGT HP from 600 to 550.
Light Tank price reduced from 700 to 650.
Visceroid spawn reduce from 10 to 5.
Increase all building HP by 100. (Exception of defense structures)
Gun turret HP increase from 400 to 410.
Starting units adjusted. (See notes below)
MCV build time decreased from 1:36 to 1:12.
Obelisk Mechanic https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/issues/11415 (Still needs work)
Grenadier/Chem Mechanic https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/issues/11409 (Still needs work)
--------------------------------
NOTES:
The MCV build time mentioned by Norman is something ive been playing around with. With the strength of the nuke its a better idea to reduce the time on the MCV play. Bringing down the AGT HP pool might help in these situations as well as the use of artillery. Consideration is needed however with the past of massing defense structures. The refinery and harv changes will be watched in these effects.
Starting units! This is a big one. Nod and GDI will no longer spawn random units (Under light support). They will now spawn a fixed amount. The following is as listed:
GDI light support spawns:
Humvee.
5 minigunners.
2 rocket infantry.
Nod light support spawns:
Buggy.
6 minigunners.
2 rocket infantry.
--------------
Originally with the buggy you get 3 rocket infantry and 3 minigunners. However, if the player spawns as GDI its a possible to easily mass up starting minigunners and catch the Nod player with higher numbers. While the buggy has less HP then the humvee you do get an extra minigunners and these infantry can kill light vehicles quickly if in the right place.
Just a heads-up, we more or less did this in the past with Marn's Mod on TS and D2K. It just ended up being anl annoyance. Sure the silos are useless as they are but it just isn't worth it forcing them in.AoAGeneral1 wrote: ↑Refinery tiberium hold reduced from 2000 to 700.
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AoAGeneral1
- Posts: 597
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:11 pm
@dtluna
Ive considered removing airstrike just because of its random nature. Its something I can mention to the devs about and see their input.
As far as money support powers this will nerf GDI badly. GDI is already an expensive faction in building their assets. Medium tanks costing more and etc. It will be very difficult to use an ion if it costs an extra amount specially if the opponent bleeds the player dry unable to use the weapon effect rather then shutting the power down.
@SoScared
Actually in the testing that it was done ive noticed that at a 700 limit it doesnt force the use of silos but instead caps them from reaching the 8k amounts. Currently in the release version players build at most 3 refineries. 2 in most cases which is 4000. If the change was done this would be down to 1400. 2100 with 3 refineries. This is still a lot of cash to hold onto without being forced to make a silos.
With the power change on the refinery its actually branching out more build options rather then the standard going weapons factory all the time as the best option. Which in turn if you do the straight two refinery build its hard to get capped off 700 in part of doing the factory build which will require players to either make the silo or get another refinery soon.
Another thing to keep in mind is selling refineries had no bad merits. With the changes in it not only doesnt give a refund but if you are not careful with your cash stock you will lose the cash stock if the refinery sold has cash in its hold. This in many ways prevents the refinery sell off trick which is extremely powerful for vehicle builds.
Ive considered removing airstrike just because of its random nature. Its something I can mention to the devs about and see their input.
As far as money support powers this will nerf GDI badly. GDI is already an expensive faction in building their assets. Medium tanks costing more and etc. It will be very difficult to use an ion if it costs an extra amount specially if the opponent bleeds the player dry unable to use the weapon effect rather then shutting the power down.
@SoScared
Actually in the testing that it was done ive noticed that at a 700 limit it doesnt force the use of silos but instead caps them from reaching the 8k amounts. Currently in the release version players build at most 3 refineries. 2 in most cases which is 4000. If the change was done this would be down to 1400. 2100 with 3 refineries. This is still a lot of cash to hold onto without being forced to make a silos.
With the power change on the refinery its actually branching out more build options rather then the standard going weapons factory all the time as the best option. Which in turn if you do the straight two refinery build its hard to get capped off 700 in part of doing the factory build which will require players to either make the silo or get another refinery soon.
Another thing to keep in mind is selling refineries had no bad merits. With the changes in it not only doesnt give a refund but if you are not careful with your cash stock you will lose the cash stock if the refinery sold has cash in its hold. This in many ways prevents the refinery sell off trick which is extremely powerful for vehicle builds.
AoAGeneral1 wrote: ↑@dtluna
Ive considered removing airstrike just because of its random nature. Its something I can mention to the devs about and see their input.
As far as money support powers this will nerf GDI badly. GDI is already an expensive faction in building their assets. Medium tanks costing more and etc. It will be very difficult to use an ion if it costs an extra amount specially if the opponent bleeds the player dry unable to use the weapon effect rather then shutting the power down.
> Its something I can mention to the devs about and see their input.
That's good. Please do so, because it is too powerful and random.
> It will be very difficult to use an ion if it costs an extra amount specially if the opponent bleeds the player dry unable to use the weapon effect rather then shutting the power down.
In terms of superweapons, I think that only the Ion Cannon Control center (a new structure dedicated for the Ion Cannon superweapon) should cost money. Invoking the power should be free. And the same goes for the Temple of Nod. It should be a dedicated structure for the Nuclear Missile superweapon.
The tech aspect should be covered by tech centers and stuff like that. Like in RA.
As for regular support powers, for example a radar scan of a reinforcements drop, these should cost money, but be available as soon as you build a tech structure, but they should cost money.
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AoAGeneral1
- Posts: 597
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:11 pm
@dtluna
Already spoke and prefer the money method. The problem still relies on the cost factor as GDI. Nod is able to get purchases up rather easily in comparison to GDI.
As for a single structure ment for superweapons rather then a merged structure would also create economy issues for GDI. For both Nod and GDI having multiple stuctures just to lead up to a nuke structure or Ion structure would be a large investment. Right now they spend the essential economy for the tech unlocks and the powers are a bonus. IE: The Nod obelisk (All be it broken right now) but once fixed people will be opted to go for the Nod Temple because of not only just the obelisk but the stealth tanks and chem troopers. This creates a more motive to go for these structures and the price all worth it.
If a superweapon structure is to be built and used only for that "Gee should I stick to my stealth tanks/mammoth tanks and my tech or build up to a nuke and wait 6 min/about 4 min." And the tech units are expensive as it is. (More so GDI).
@SoScared:
Paying up for a charged airstrike would do the same sort of thing but in a backwards method. Im already working on some ideas for engineers and if this passes then that means economy gets held up (more so GDI) and wasted time if the com center is lost.
So instead of going with the 500/1000$ for the airstrike it could be spent on an extra harvester or more infantry or/and vehicles.
All together:
These are things that I can play around with. But right now with how expensive GDI is and the tech units all together I would like to put out the refinery changes and the new build order changes first. If all goes well its a possible to look into these but right now there are bigger problems such as buggy obelisks.
Already spoke and prefer the money method. The problem still relies on the cost factor as GDI. Nod is able to get purchases up rather easily in comparison to GDI.
As for a single structure ment for superweapons rather then a merged structure would also create economy issues for GDI. For both Nod and GDI having multiple stuctures just to lead up to a nuke structure or Ion structure would be a large investment. Right now they spend the essential economy for the tech unlocks and the powers are a bonus. IE: The Nod obelisk (All be it broken right now) but once fixed people will be opted to go for the Nod Temple because of not only just the obelisk but the stealth tanks and chem troopers. This creates a more motive to go for these structures and the price all worth it.
If a superweapon structure is to be built and used only for that "Gee should I stick to my stealth tanks/mammoth tanks and my tech or build up to a nuke and wait 6 min/about 4 min." And the tech units are expensive as it is. (More so GDI).
@SoScared:
Paying up for a charged airstrike would do the same sort of thing but in a backwards method. Im already working on some ideas for engineers and if this passes then that means economy gets held up (more so GDI) and wasted time if the com center is lost.
So instead of going with the 500/1000$ for the airstrike it could be spent on an extra harvester or more infantry or/and vehicles.
All together:
These are things that I can play around with. But right now with how expensive GDI is and the tech units all together I would like to put out the refinery changes and the new build order changes first. If all goes well its a possible to look into these but right now there are bigger problems such as buggy obelisks.
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AoAGeneral1
- Posts: 597
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:11 pm
Original this idea I wasn't going to put into plan. But with the refinery changes in mind I decided to test it.
I am currently testing one engineer captures in TD much like C&C95 since engineer captures aren't popular due to their expenses. This will make engineers a much higher value target and more dangerous. It also gives GDI players an option to do early engagements (While also shutting down some extra additional vehicle plays).
This of course is in testing and still haven't decided if I want to do this yet or not.
I am currently testing one engineer captures in TD much like C&C95 since engineer captures aren't popular due to their expenses. This will make engineers a much higher value target and more dangerous. It also gives GDI players an option to do early engagements (While also shutting down some extra additional vehicle plays).
This of course is in testing and still haven't decided if I want to do this yet or not.
AoAGeneral1 wrote: ↑Original this idea I wasn't going to put into plan. But with the refinery changes in mind I decided to test it.
I am currently testing one engineer captures in TD much like C&C95 since engineer captures aren't popular due to their expenses. This will make engineers a much higher value target and more dangerous. It also gives GDI players an option to do early engagements (While also shutting down some extra additional vehicle plays).
This of course is in testing and still haven't decided if I want to do this yet or not.
At least there should be a delay before capture, otherwise engi-APC will be unstoppable.
Look at CNC3 TW with engis without delay.