The Elephant in the room
Raising the issue of the problem with allied static defences
base rushing takes skill ? you deploy a mcv ... plop down turrets and aim them ... where exactly is the "skill" part ?klaas wrote: ↑ I don't think "base rushing" is something bad. It takes skill (or teamwork) to pull off, and I've seen it fail pretty often too.
this thread started exactly because of this issue, basewalking ... AMHOL talks about it in the first post
- Aaron_Lloyd
- Posts: 46
- Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 5:34 am
I completely agree that it's not a fix-all, just thought it might be a move in the right direction.AMHOL wrote: ↑I don't think that fixes the problem as people hardly ever build mammoth tanks, and even with the speed buff and IC they're too slow to even make an impact crushing walls as you can't follow up with an army when there are a couple of artys behind or vs a good player that micros their base defences.Aaron_Lloyd wrote: ↑Crazy idea, how about making pillboxes (and maybe turrets) crushable by Mammoth Tanks?
And i agree with this , the problem is ... when Soviets use their flamethrower-apcs (lets say 2 apcs filled with flamethrowers... or the grenadier-rush that tries to outplay you by sending in a bait - dog firstFiveAces wrote: ↑ Static D is supposed to be placed in key locations, not spammed all over the place to turn half the map into a no-go area.
in those chases every second for the 2nd pillbox counts ... because your (most likely clever) enemy is most likely gonna avoid doing any of that stuff near your barrack ...
im not saying that pillboxes or turrets price and builtime is fine as it is ... but changing this (specially on pillboxes) ... can have hard effects on early rushes
an APC never cares on your "beforehand placed defense-structures" ... because your enemy is gonna avoid deploying troops in those areas ... so the best deal you can make against flamethrowers or grenadiers is to "hold" a box ... the crucial point here is , when you have to wait for the next pillbox ... because that is the time when youre potentially "delivered" to your enemys actions
so ... summa summarum ... changing price/buildtime of defense structures will put more weight on flamethrower and grenadier-rushes ...
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but hey ....
at the end , it doesnt really matter ... cause we could just all play soviet then
Great thread!!
Price increase seems like the most straighforward way to adress the issue. $500/$600 pillbox and $700 c.pillbox/turret looks intriguing and represents a significant nerf in build time (+25% / 50% pillbox, +16,7% c.pillbox/turret). In the case of a $600 pillbox + $700 c.pillbox, they both ought to share the same HP of 400 in order to retain the pillbox HP value vs c.pillbox stealth value.
Didn't realise the pillbox occupant gained veterancy over time. It surely adds to the issue but if there's an another efficient way to deal with the problem we might want to keep that cute little detail.
Price increase seems like the most straighforward way to adress the issue. $500/$600 pillbox and $700 c.pillbox/turret looks intriguing and represents a significant nerf in build time (+25% / 50% pillbox, +16,7% c.pillbox/turret). In the case of a $600 pillbox + $700 c.pillbox, they both ought to share the same HP of 400 in order to retain the pillbox HP value vs c.pillbox stealth value.
Didn't realise the pillbox occupant gained veterancy over time. It surely adds to the issue but if there's an another efficient way to deal with the problem we might want to keep that cute little detail.
Why not? Crushable pillboxes sounds like great fun.Aaron_Lloyd wrote: ↑Crazy idea, how about making pillboxes (and maybe turrets) crushable by Mammoth Tanks?
Last edited by SoScared on Thu Oct 27, 2016 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
a flame tower for $600 can wipe out a whole cell with infantry (thats 5) ... with their 2-shots ...christian wrote: ↑ Then pillboxes got a significant buff so they could kill infantry with one shot but the price stayed at $400. Increasing the price to $500 would be fair and they would still be $100 cheaper than flame towers - $400 is too cheap for what they can do.
At $400 a pillbox is a much better value than a flame tower at $600
allies dont have any "rush-units" like flamethrowers and grenadiers that soviets have to defend against ...
Yeah we discussed the APC rush strategy too, Christian mentioned that it was the reason pillboxes were buffed in the first place, don't forget a flamer APC rush costs $2350, the fact that you can counter it with a $400 pillbox is already ridiculous IMO, having said that, if this were to become a blocker for Allied defence structure nerf, I wouldn't be opposed to also nerfing flame infantry.JOo wrote: ↑And i agree with this , the problem is ... when Soviets use their flamethrower-apcs (lets say 2 apcs filled with flamethrowers... or the grenadier-rush that tries to outplay you by sending in a bait - dog firstFiveAces wrote: ↑ Static D is supposed to be placed in key locations, not spammed all over the place to turn half the map into a no-go area.
in those chases every second for the 2nd pillbox counts ... because your (most likely clever) enemy is most likely gonna avoid doing any of that stuff near your barrack ...
im not saying that pillboxes or turrets price and builtime is fine as it is ... but changing this (specially on pillboxes) ... can have hard effects on early rushes
an APC never cares on your "beforehand placed defense-structures" ... because your enemy is gonna avoid deploying troops in those areas ... so the best deal you can make against flamethrowers or grenadiers is to "hold" a box ... the crucial point here is , when you have to wait for the next pillbox ... because that is the time when youre potentially "delivered" to your enemys actions
so ... summa summarum ... changing price/buildtime of defense structures will put more weight on flamethrower and grenadier-rushes ...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
but hey ....
at the end , it doesnt really matter ... cause we could just all play soviet then
Granted, but that's why you hold off on placing your pillbox until you know what type of cargo the APC is holding.And i agree with this , the problem is ... when Soviets use their flamethrower-apcs (lets say 2 apcs filled with flamethrowers... or the grenadier-rush that tries to outplay you by sending in a bait - dog first
If they unload a dog, you can safely assume it's a bait and hold on to your pillbox.
If you place your defensive structure prematurely and the opponent gets to your mcv with 5 flamers anyway,
it does not matter whether the pillbox build time is 10 or 15 seconds, as they take roughly 8 sec to kill a con yard.
At that point, your best bet is to unpack and relocate, as flamers can't hit moving targets.
I've come back from this situation countless times, don't think it's a big deal.
the dog bait is different...
you build a dog and 5 grenadiers ... then let them move together to the enemies base ... then you place the dog infront of his barrack ... which will make your enemy let deploy the box he is holding (what else should he do at that point he only sees the dog) ... - i know he could have had some rifles holding position in his base ... but lets say he used them to scout the area ... because thats what almost everyone is doing in 1v1s
thats the point when you flank with your grenadiers ... not the conyard , but the refinerys (and thats the point when he need a 2nd pillbox asap)
and beside, those 2 seconds are still better then 7 seconds
.. if i can catch only 1 or 2 of them meanwhile ... lets say with an almost empty hind or a rifle ... that is a big difference
i also come from those situations countless times , you know that .. and you dont need to tell me that i have to hold my box till i know whats coming out ... i was talking about 2 apcs ... and this particular grenadier rush
it would even work with just 1 apc .. you fill it with flamethrowers ... then block your enemies refinery until he deploys his defense-structure .... and he will deploy it ... or else he cant get any money ...
bingo ... 15 seconds of flamethrower action ... instead of 10
changing the buildtime , will make a difference for such rushes ... 100% ...
you build a dog and 5 grenadiers ... then let them move together to the enemies base ... then you place the dog infront of his barrack ... which will make your enemy let deploy the box he is holding (what else should he do at that point he only sees the dog) ... - i know he could have had some rifles holding position in his base ... but lets say he used them to scout the area ... because thats what almost everyone is doing in 1v1s
thats the point when you flank with your grenadiers ... not the conyard , but the refinerys (and thats the point when he need a 2nd pillbox asap)
and beside, those 2 seconds are still better then 7 seconds
.. if i can catch only 1 or 2 of them meanwhile ... lets say with an almost empty hind or a rifle ... that is a big difference
i also come from those situations countless times , you know that .. and you dont need to tell me that i have to hold my box till i know whats coming out ... i was talking about 2 apcs ... and this particular grenadier rush
it would even work with just 1 apc .. you fill it with flamethrowers ... then block your enemies refinery until he deploys his defense-structure .... and he will deploy it ... or else he cant get any money ...
bingo ... 15 seconds of flamethrower action ... instead of 10
changing the buildtime , will make a difference for such rushes ... 100% ...
Ah, that's what you are talking about. If a dog is camping your barracks,
you can safely ignore it until your first vehicle is out, saving your pillbox for a real threat.
Now the refinery block with a fully loaded APC is a different story altogether, but in this case your opponent has spent $2450 on a very risky move,
and you are bound to having allocated those 2450 elsewhere.
Now if you still have some cash left over, just produce a rocket soldier to force him to undeploy, then pop the pillbox.
If you have rushed a radar or something, then yea, you are toast. Also, any amount of refineries > 1 prevents this.
What I'm getting at is that there are many counters readily available,
unless you went for a build that is straight up gamelosing versus a rush of any sorts.
you can safely ignore it until your first vehicle is out, saving your pillbox for a real threat.
Now the refinery block with a fully loaded APC is a different story altogether, but in this case your opponent has spent $2450 on a very risky move,
and you are bound to having allocated those 2450 elsewhere.
Now if you still have some cash left over, just produce a rocket soldier to force him to undeploy, then pop the pillbox.
If you have rushed a radar or something, then yea, you are toast. Also, any amount of refineries > 1 prevents this.
What I'm getting at is that there are many counters readily available,
unless you went for a build that is straight up gamelosing versus a rush of any sorts.
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- Posts: 22
- Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:55 pm
I'm in favor of both the static build speeds for defense structures and increasing the price of the pillboxes. Also the ranking system is based around the value of the unit inside and not the structure itself so pillboxes get ranked ridiculously fast.
Price:
Right now you can plop down a $400 pillbox to shoot a dog and then sell it and you only lose $60. ($200 refund + the $100 soldier inside[+$20 rank] + the $20 bounty)
Value:
It makes no sense that the pillbox is so much cheaper than the flame tower when it's so much better, you can't even tank for your infantry vs pillboxes as they are ridiculously easy to micro (click 1 pillbox and hit "w" to select them all, then spam click all the infantry). Four pillboxes cost about as much as 1 tesla coil once you consider the power requirements.
Build times:
Since the MCV builds faster than the war factory (32 seconds vs 48 seconds) spamming MCV's for fast defenses + map control is too viable. Defense structures are stronger than vehicles for the price, can be built faster, and can be sold at any time.
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Some info on build speeds & the ranking system:
The build time reduction scale for all production facilities including the MCV is: 100,85,75,65,60,55,50.
So with just 2 additional MCV's you can build pillboxes in 7.5 seconds and turrets in 11.25 seconds.
The ranking system:
x2 value = 1st rank (rifle/pillbox needs to kill 1 dog[$200])
x4 value = 2nd rank (rifle/pillbox needs to kill 1 more dog[$400])
x8 value = 3rd rank (rifle/pillbox needs to kill 2 more dogs[$800])
x16 value = 4th rank (rifle/pillbox needs to kill 4 more dogs[$1600])
Value of ranked units:
First rank = +20% (e.g. rifleman is worth $120)
Second rank = +150% (e.g. rifleman is worth $250)
Third rank = +270% (e.g. rifleman is worth $370)
Fourth rank = +400% (e.g. rifleman is worth $500)
Upgrades granted for each additional rank:
Damage recieved: 95, 90, 85, 75
Weapon Firepower: 105, 110, 120, 130
Unit Speed: 105, 110, 120, 140
Reload delay: 95, 90, 85, 75
Innaccuracy: 90, 80, 70, 50
*Self Heal for 4th rank.
Price:
Right now you can plop down a $400 pillbox to shoot a dog and then sell it and you only lose $60. ($200 refund + the $100 soldier inside[+$20 rank] + the $20 bounty)
Value:
It makes no sense that the pillbox is so much cheaper than the flame tower when it's so much better, you can't even tank for your infantry vs pillboxes as they are ridiculously easy to micro (click 1 pillbox and hit "w" to select them all, then spam click all the infantry). Four pillboxes cost about as much as 1 tesla coil once you consider the power requirements.
Build times:
Since the MCV builds faster than the war factory (32 seconds vs 48 seconds) spamming MCV's for fast defenses + map control is too viable. Defense structures are stronger than vehicles for the price, can be built faster, and can be sold at any time.
----
Some info on build speeds & the ranking system:
The build time reduction scale for all production facilities including the MCV is: 100,85,75,65,60,55,50.
So with just 2 additional MCV's you can build pillboxes in 7.5 seconds and turrets in 11.25 seconds.
The ranking system:
x2 value = 1st rank (rifle/pillbox needs to kill 1 dog[$200])
x4 value = 2nd rank (rifle/pillbox needs to kill 1 more dog[$400])
x8 value = 3rd rank (rifle/pillbox needs to kill 2 more dogs[$800])
x16 value = 4th rank (rifle/pillbox needs to kill 4 more dogs[$1600])
Value of ranked units:
First rank = +20% (e.g. rifleman is worth $120)
Second rank = +150% (e.g. rifleman is worth $250)
Third rank = +270% (e.g. rifleman is worth $370)
Fourth rank = +400% (e.g. rifleman is worth $500)
Upgrades granted for each additional rank:
Damage recieved: 95, 90, 85, 75
Weapon Firepower: 105, 110, 120, 130
Unit Speed: 105, 110, 120, 140
Reload delay: 95, 90, 85, 75
Innaccuracy: 90, 80, 70, 50
*Self Heal for 4th rank.
- AoAGeneral1
- Posts: 597
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:11 pm
TD Guard tower takes 24 seconds to build at 600$ pricing. power of 10. It fires only one volley:
Guard tower:
Reload Delay: 25
Spread: 683
Damage: 30
Versus armor types:
None: 100
Wood: 50
Light: 70
Heavy: 30
RA Pillbox takes 10 seconds to build at price 400$. C.Pillbox takes 15 seconds at 600$. Both at a power of 15. They both fire six volleys:
Reload Delay: 30
Spread: 128
Damage: 10 (60 after volley)
Versus armor types:
None: 200
Wood: 50
Light: 60
Heavy: 25
Concrete: 25 (I didn't know they did concrete damage.)
With them firing volleys in six shots it reduces the damage over all to armor vehicles in compared to a straight 60 damage.
10 damage of 25 heavy = 12 damage.
60 damage of 25 heavy = 15 damage. (Unless my math sucks which is known to happen.)
They do not switch targets after a unit dies however. (IE: After 3 shots kill an infantry the other 3 are shot at the ground. Then targest a new target for the full 6 shots)
Best fix is to raise the build time. I would test that and leave the price alone. Many times you can kill a pillbox box but in general circumstances you have 5-6 seconds of free killing time before another pops up.
Guard tower:
Reload Delay: 25
Spread: 683
Damage: 30
Versus armor types:
None: 100
Wood: 50
Light: 70
Heavy: 30
RA Pillbox takes 10 seconds to build at price 400$. C.Pillbox takes 15 seconds at 600$. Both at a power of 15. They both fire six volleys:
Reload Delay: 30
Spread: 128
Damage: 10 (60 after volley)
Versus armor types:
None: 200
Wood: 50
Light: 60
Heavy: 25
Concrete: 25 (I didn't know they did concrete damage.)
With them firing volleys in six shots it reduces the damage over all to armor vehicles in compared to a straight 60 damage.
10 damage of 25 heavy = 12 damage.
60 damage of 25 heavy = 15 damage. (Unless my math sucks which is known to happen.)
They do not switch targets after a unit dies however. (IE: After 3 shots kill an infantry the other 3 are shot at the ground. Then targest a new target for the full 6 shots)
Best fix is to raise the build time. I would test that and leave the price alone. Many times you can kill a pillbox box but in general circumstances you have 5-6 seconds of free killing time before another pops up.
- Materianer
- Posts: 199
- Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 8:27 am
I say NO to this idea, because i don't think there's a problem with those structures.
Of course are they cheaper compared to the soviet ones. Remind that Teslas got much more range than Turrets or pillboxes.
You guys really want to tell me Soviets are the weaker race? That must be a bad joke oO
Soviets had the mammoth speed buff and the missilesub buff. Luckily the changes where not too big except of the sub change this seem to be annoying as an allied player, but have to test this more if you still got a slight chance with ships.
Was already hard before this change.
Also think about the arty range nerf and camo pillbox nerf.
I really don't see a problem with the defenses, and allies need a Taktik to win a game.
But i like JOo's idea wich would also hit the Soviets.
"
Change the "Start-unit" (MCV) to a "Start-structure" being the Construction Conyard , add new lobby option to "lock" Construction-Conyards from getting undeployed once they are deployed
Make it impossible for all defense-structures to target "static structures" (that includes enemy defense structures)... so they can only attack moving targets ... units
"
Of course are they cheaper compared to the soviet ones. Remind that Teslas got much more range than Turrets or pillboxes.
You guys really want to tell me Soviets are the weaker race? That must be a bad joke oO
Soviets had the mammoth speed buff and the missilesub buff. Luckily the changes where not too big except of the sub change this seem to be annoying as an allied player, but have to test this more if you still got a slight chance with ships.
Was already hard before this change.
Also think about the arty range nerf and camo pillbox nerf.
I really don't see a problem with the defenses, and allies need a Taktik to win a game.
But i like JOo's idea wich would also hit the Soviets.
"
Change the "Start-unit" (MCV) to a "Start-structure" being the Construction Conyard , add new lobby option to "lock" Construction-Conyards from getting undeployed once they are deployed
Make it impossible for all defense-structures to target "static structures" (that includes enemy defense structures)... so they can only attack moving targets ... units
"
Check out these replays for demos of the issue, one is me vs Omnom in which I lost, but it was much harder than it should have been for Omnom, there's also Frame vs MT in which Frame won due to surrender
- Attachments
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- static_defence_replays.tar.gz
- (909.72 KiB) Downloaded 279 times
Here's a silly idea, would it change anything if base defenses had increased power draw but also went offline when power was low(like Tesla and AA currently do)?
Sure base pushing is still going to be a thing but now power plays a bigger role in it. Right now as allies when you base push you can use rax+pill+turret and only need to build the occasional pp. If those all went offline when low power it would stall basepushing. It would also increase the time it takes to base walk as you would have to split your time between rax and pp's. I think it also brings in the possibility of sniping power with a hit and run detachment somewhere else on the map.
I think you see this in soviet vs soviet games with basepushes.
Sure base pushing is still going to be a thing but now power plays a bigger role in it. Right now as allies when you base push you can use rax+pill+turret and only need to build the occasional pp. If those all went offline when low power it would stall basepushing. It would also increase the time it takes to base walk as you would have to split your time between rax and pp's. I think it also brings in the possibility of sniping power with a hit and run detachment somewhere else on the map.
I think you see this in soviet vs soviet games with basepushes.