Dome Tech Revamp

Discussion about the game and its default mods.
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Punsho
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Location: Lithuania

Dome Tech Revamp

Post by Punsho »

For a long while I've been contemplating why dome tech feels so unreliable, and uncomforable to wield. I think I found out why. These units are too explosive, they die or kill too easily, and aren't as robust as infantry and tanks. So here are the changes I'm proposing to address it

Artillery
  • Turn speed from 2 to 5
  • Health from 10000 to 15000
  • Weapon range from 12 cells to 9
  • Minimum weapon range from 4 cells to 3
  • Damage versus light from 60% to 50%
  • Reload delay from 75 to 50
Smaller range lets more interactivity happen between units and makes arty wars easier, as you can better guess where your opponent is shooting from. Increase in health and decrease in dps vs light armour make arties take 2 direct hits from opposing arties to die. One direct hit takes away 2/3s of health. The increased turn speed makes arty able to dodge out of enemy artillery, and let arty be just more versatile unit on a dynamic frontline. Reload delay was decreased to counteract these nerfs and to make artillery feel like it's asserting a relentless barrage, as it no longer felt like it with reduced range.

V2 Rocket Launcher
  • Weapon range from 10 cells to 9
  • Minimum weapon range from 4 cells to 3
  • Movement speed from 85 to 98
  • Reload delay from 240 to 150
  • Cost from 850 to 1000
V2 already feels quite fun to use, but it's just too weak. Movement increased to complement its hit and run design and differentiate it more from artillery. Reload delay was decreased as the main buff. V2 is a bit too comital, you need to land all your shots to even start thinking about being able to compete vs tanks. This buff makes you able to play more freely. Range was decreased for similar reasons as artillery, and cost was increased as these buffs are pretty big. It also further differentiates V2 from arty

Radar Dome
  • Cost from 1800 to 1500
Dome currently is the most expensive tech structure, tech centre costs 1500 and service depot 1200. There's no reason for dome to be this overpriced


--------------------


AA Gun
  • Cost from 800 to 600
  • Damage from 1200 to 830
Mobile Flak
  • Anti-air damage from 2000 to 1500
Black Hawk
  • Ammo from 24 to 40
  • Rearm delay from 8 to 5
  • Damage from 2500 to 1500
Longbow
  • Reload delay from 30 to 44
  • Burst delay from 7 to 10
  • Turn speed from 4 to 7
MiG
  • Health from 10000 to 7500
Mammoth Tank
  • Missile Tusk damage versus light from 60% to 50%
These changes are aimed at making air interactions slower. They won't really alter the way you play, but just increase interactivity by giving you more time to micro with and against these units. Black Hawk retains the same total damage per full ammo. Longbow turn rate buff is mostly there to give it a more nimble feel. Mammoth is nerfed slightly so he wouldn't one-shot Yaks


--------------------


Parabombs
  • Dropped by 1 Badger instead of 3
  • Badger drops 10 bombs instead of 5
  • Damage spread from 768 to 1000
  • Damage from 30000 to 40000
  • Damage versus none from 30% to 40%
  • Damage versus wood from 30% to 60%
  • Velocity from -30 to -40
Badger
  • Speed from 180 to 170
These changes don't have much to do with this dome revamp, but as parabbombs are also a dome ability, I think this is is fitting to test here. It basically makes parabombs easier to dodge with armies, while still keeping them powerful. These parabombs will do the same dps vs wooden structures as regular ones



Here's a map with these changes implemented https://resource.openra.net/maps/37514/. I don't plan on working on this further as I am going away. However I will still respond to posts and questions. Anyone can take over my work or parts of it if they so desire.

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KOYK_GR
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Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:46 pm

Re: Dome Tech Revamp

Post by KOYK_GR »

Artillery
Weapon range from 12 cells to 9 (change it to 8? same for v2?)

V2 Rocket Launcher
Movement speed from 85 to 98
Reload delay from 240 to 150
I dont know, its easy already to snipe an con yard with 4 of them

AA Gun
Cost from 800 to 600
Damage from 1200 to 830
at least give it some extra vision range, 1-2 cells

I haven't played the map yet, though I plan to do so, those are my concerns just by reading, after I play the map I will come back to you.

SirCake
Posts: 387
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:40 pm

Re: Dome Tech Revamp

Post by SirCake »

1) Not at all a fan of the arty reload speed increase, which basically means you lose 33% more infantry to an arty. The 10% damage reduction won't change that.
It means attacking into PB line + arty behind would be even more impossible than right now.

2)Don't like Mig health decrease (why?). It has incredibly low health even now. (3 shots from rockets, really?? You are making it 2-shottable)

3)I like the AA gun nerf and I agree that the problem is the speed at which engagements with aircraft are decided (way to quick right now).
Radome cheaper is also great.
4)UOE also did decrease plane speed, which surprisingly makes the units better (more microable).

So from me thumbs up for the experiment except for 1 and 2

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Punsho
Posts: 82
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:56 pm
Location: Lithuania

Re: Dome Tech Revamp

Post by Punsho »

KOYK_GR wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:00 am
Artillery
Weapon range from 12 cells to 9 (change it to 8? same for v2?)
They still need to outrange static defences. IIRC Tesla coil has 7.5, and outranging it only by 0.5 cells isn't enough
KOYK_GR wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:00 am
V2 Rocket Launcher
Movement speed from 85 to 98
Reload delay from 240 to 150
I dont know, its easy already to snipe an con yard with 4 of them
You need 5 v2 misslies to kill a conyard. And yea, v2's will be very good at killing buildings. I think I expressed my opinion on V2's quite well in the opening post
KOYK_GR wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:00 am
AA Gun
Cost from 800 to 600
Damage from 1200 to 830
at least give it some extra vision range, 1-2 cells
Question is, do they need it? I haven't done much multiplayer testing so I can't say. But even with this nerf aa guns kill aircraft pretty quickly. And fwiw aa guns have 4 cells more weapon range than vision. Thanks for your feedback
SirCake wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:13 am
1) Not at all a fan of the arty reload speed increase, which basically means you lose 33% more infantry to an arty. The 10% damage reduction won't change that.
It means attacking into PB line + arty behind would be even more impossible than right now.
The weapon range is the kicker here. No longer will arties be able to hide behind defence lines.They will be the defence line. Also you might have not known but arties had their splash radius reduced not so long ago. You should be able to counter arties way easier with various tanks and with mobile flaks. The 10% decrease is versus light armour, infantry have none armour
SirCake wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:13 am
2)Don't like Mig health decrease (why?). It has incredibly low health even now. (3 shots from rockets, really?? You are making it 2-shottable)
I think you should give MiGs a try ;). They are't extremely fragile and haven't been for a while now. Though I did also give em a health boost last last patch, now they should be of medium health. I reduced their hp here because the main counters to migs were nerfed, and I don't believe that the current mig death speed needs to be longer
SirCake wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:13 am
4)UOE also did decrease plane speed, which surprisingly makes the units better (more microable).
I haven't tried that out, but I see how it would be benefitial. One also has to consider that planes need to outrun longbow. Perhaps a speed nerf on all aircraft would be good. Though I would like BH to get a small speed buff, as it has currently the same speed as mobile flaks. Thanks for your input

SirCake
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Re: Dome Tech Revamp

Post by SirCake »

Range doesn't matter if the unit you are shooting at can't shoot back.
See d2k siege tanks. They have way less range, they do less damage and they still shred infantry like nothing.
Infantry getting hit by arty will have to crawl, so they'll have a hard time closing in.

Also reducing range actually may have the contrary effect you want. outmaneuvering arty that has high range can be easier than low range arty because then you have more reaction time. I saw this when I tried 20 range siege tanks (which was silly :D ).

You are right, I was not aware and did not notice any difference (the blast radius thing). Probably the change as too minuscule.

I like your idea of differentiating arty and v2 though. v2 "shoot and scoot"(mil.) and arty like the classic artillerty gun.
Maybe try reducing arty hit radius to the exreme such that only a direct hit is dangerous. Together with inaccurrcay this should make it quite fun. It's offset by higher firing rate(your mod) and cheap price of arty.
Then I'd keep high range & low turn rate though.
You could also keep the increased turn rate but make the arty move slower, so it still feels sluggish and falls automatically into formation like the other allied vehicles (notably tanks and radar jammer).

For v2 also consider maybe just increasing damage, that will reinforce shoot & scoot as higher fire rate will force you to micro more often.

I'm using Mig reagularly in team games and they are a waste of money almost every time. And every time vs allies.

AMHOL
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Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:24 pm

Re: Dome Tech Revamp

Post by AMHOL »

Reads like an Allied players letter to santa.

Ronald
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Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:05 pm

Re: Dome Tech Revamp

Post by Ronald »

Punsho wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:40 pm
Here's a map with these changes implemented https://resource.openra.net/maps/37514/. I don't plan on working on this further as I am going away. However I will still respond to posts and questions. Anyone can take over my work or parts of it if they so desire.
Thanks for creating this map Punsho. I've played ( 1vrs1 against Rush-AI)
It was a lot of fun., and lot thougher too beat the AI-bot too.

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MlemandPurrs
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Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:40 pm

Re: Dome Tech Revamp

Post by MlemandPurrs »

Artillery doesnt need such an insane buff. Infact, currently its in a spot where its performing its intended function precisely, as to im baffled why its still being tweaked when its already perfect.
You are correct on the radar dome needing reduced price, if it was up to me it'd be even lower, like 1200, or 1000 even.
AA Guns are deadly and by far the best AA there is, they dont need to become more spammable.
Nobody uses MiGs outside of memeing, this hp nerf would be the final nail in the coffin for them. Migs need to become relevant, not nerfed further down into oblivion.
Blackhawk almost doubles its ammo, yet its price stays the same ? Thats not good change.
Parabombs damage versus wood change will create a td airstrike like problem where if it comes from your edge your base will be gone. Keep in mind team-games exists where this can be used in rapid sucession on the same player's base.

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Clockwork
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Re: Dome Tech Revamp

Post by Clockwork »

Anyone who believes migs are bad needs to do 12 rounds in the thunder dome with ILikeMen

SirCake
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Re: Dome Tech Revamp

Post by SirCake »

Come on, competitive games rarely see high tech. It's tanks+inf all game.

A Mig is basically a flying rocket soldier with limited ammo and a close combat attack.

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Clockwork
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Re: Dome Tech Revamp

Post by Clockwork »

I mean the RAGL finals playoff had plenty of tech :/

Migs need to be used properly, and that's hovering out of AA range sniping ore trucks. Ill attach a picture of the exact scenario. That is a situation where the MiG is not touched at all. If you use 2 Migs together (the standard count), you can three burst a harvester and take minimal clipping damage. The harvester can also not provide vision for the AA gun since the Mig can strike outside its range. The only way I've found to counter it is by parking MRJ's in my ore fields. As soviets you can bring flak trucks however the MiG can just relocate to the next ore patch. And as soon as you leave the flaks for static defence, they can be taken out quite easily with MiG micro. This is the same for countering with vision providing units or Longbows, the migs can simply fly away since they're very fast and harass somewhere else. Eventually it turns into an excruciating game of whack a mole which can suck up a lot of your attention. Currently ILikeMen is the best at this type of Mig usage.

Along side this, Migs can be used for picking off low hp tanks. For a masterclass on this check Orbs Mig micro vs myself on game 1 of our RATL semi-finals.
Attachments
mig.PNG
mig.PNG (219.11 KiB) Viewed 871 times

SirCake
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Re: Dome Tech Revamp

Post by SirCake »

Obviously the harvester is poorly microed, it could have easily be put to work closer to the AA gun, denying the mig any angle of attack.
Also, as a mig-veteran like me knows, you can 2-shot a harvester with 2 migs (2 attack runs), not 3 shot/burst.

Migs can also easily be deterred by rocket soldiers, since they can't damage those. So if I have to do 4 attack runs with those overarching sweeping runs and the rocket soldier needs only 3 shots that should do the math for you.
You can also leave Longbows on attack anything stance, problem solved. (or even attack move into the migs)

An trust me, your opponent has to spend far more attention to execute those attacks than you, defending from them.
I salue ILikeMen if he actually can spend all that attention on top of the rest of the game.

Still, you can't out-attention or out-micro the dreaded popup-AA gun (-8k).

With 2 migs, you have to kill 4 harvesters to break even, which means finding and destroying 2 unprotected harvesters, reloading and then again destroying 2 harvesters.
Or 5 medium tanks, who conveniently take exactly 3 shots to kill, but almost certaily are accompaneid by rocket soldiers , so Duh.
I'd rather have 5 medium tanks than 2 migs.

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Clockwork
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Re: Dome Tech Revamp

Post by Clockwork »

The picture was showcasing the fact that migs can strike harvesters outside AA Gun ranges and was made quick in skirmish. The 3 shot burst was more of an average because if you turn too quickly, it only gets one salvo off sometimes. Migs are too fast to get hit by rockets if paying attention, in fact relying on rockets as your primary AA has been awful since 2018.

And trust me, as one of the main players of the aggression style, reacting to attacks is far more time consuming, demotivating and distracting than acting proactively. Think of it this way, acting proactively and attacking is in your plan, defending and reacting to your attacks is not in your enemy's plan and will cause pausing and confusion. Rewiring the tactic brain essentially temporarily. Most of the times after a bad attack that can be counter attacked, I follow up with a lightning strike with a second army then retreat just to cloud the enemies judgement on what I have and delay or stop his own counter attack. From this time stamped link (https://youtu.be/VpNH1ZLfxwI?t=430) of Juice box vs Lorrydriver. This phenomena can be seen as Juice box mops up Lorry's army in the mid game (usually a loss so bad that the ensuing counter attack will end the game). Lorry immediately strikes again as Juice box gears up his counter attack and completely stops Juice box in his tracks from reacting, taking his mind from counter attacking. Here is Juicebox discussing the above https://youtu.be/VpNH1ZLfxwI?t=958

Essentially the attention that's required to react, deal, and be aware of the Migs is far more distracting and pressuring than being the attacker with the Migs playing within your own plan. With ILikeMens play, he will harass and annoy you by attacking your ore with Migs. In the time your wasting trying to fly swat essentially, he is macroing up himself and making moves with other pieces at the same time. Whereas in this time, all your atatcks have stopped and your trying to guess where the migs will appear with your flak trucks.

Comparing worth by breaking even vs assets is usually not the best approach, for example killing 1 harvester is far more crippling to the opponent than one heavy tank which is 50 credits more expensive. Killing 2 ore trucks would but a severe dent in the enemies economy, 4 would be insane value.

lawANDorder
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Re: Dome Tech Revamp

Post by lawANDorder »

very nice changes i look forward to them being added(please do)

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Punsho
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Re: Dome Tech Revamp

Post by Punsho »

MlemandPurrs wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:36 am
Artillery doesnt need such an insane buff. Infact, currently its in a spot where its performing its intended function precisely, as to im baffled why its still being tweaked when its already perfect.
I'm not convinced that it's perfect, I see many top players shy away from using arties whenever possible. They just don't feel good to use. Personally I always unconciously try to avoid building and using arties in serious matches. And you might have missread, this is not a sraight up buff, the range decrease is a very impactful nerf to it. Though I recon I overall buffed arty, I think t2 needs buffs as tank strategies beat pretty much any other strategies in midgame. Some units like arty just make for poor gameplay so I need to rework em in order to buff em
MlemandPurrs wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:36 am
AA Guns are deadly and by far the best AA there is, they dont need to become more spammable.
You might have missed the part where I lowered their damage. I agree that they are very deadly, too deadly, so I gave them a big nerf. At the same time allies rely on AA guns for anti air, so they still need to be somewhat strong, that's where the price decrease comes in
MlemandPurrs wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:36 am
Blackhawk almost doubles its ammo, yet its price stays the same ? Thats not good change.
Same here, I think you missed the damage nerf. I basically just made black hawk take longer to kill stuff

P.s. Sorry for the late responce. I forgot, for some weird reason I thought that happy already fully responded

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