Balance thread for release 20190314

Trying to locate my missing ore trucks

Discussion about the game and its default mods.
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Punsho
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by Punsho » Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:48 am

I've updated my balance proposals https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_Il ... sp=sharing. Test map links are in the document

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Luftwaffe
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by Luftwaffe » Wed Apr 03, 2019 1:04 am

Nerfing advanced units is counter-productive imo. The mammoth tank is very expensive, takes a long time to produce, needs high-tech and is very slow. Takes only 3-4 rocket soldiers to take it out - level 1 basic units. Why remove detection and turret reach - absolutely no need. If anything, the mammoth tank should be given a more effective weapon or armor against infantry.

Right now, the game is already dominated by infantry and basic units aka spam play.

lawANDorder
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by lawANDorder » Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:22 am

Just as a information for everyone: we are making good progress with some of the big refactorings that are going to be headline features of the next release and although there is not an ETA yet, it is expected that this will change to "very soon" with little warning once these refactorings are done. So it is probably a good idea if the involved people here could agree on a set of balance changes rather sooner than later so that there is a chance to gather initial feedback, polish if required during reviewing and get them merged for the next release. IMO we should focus on balancing the effects of last release's targeting changes / unit overhauls and delay bigger, likely controversial changes to a later release, but feel free to disagree :)

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Punsho
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by Punsho » Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:29 am

Luftwaffe wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 1:04 am
Nerfing advanced units is counter-productive imo. The mammoth tank is very expensive, takes a long time to produce, needs high-tech and is very slow. Takes only 3-4 rocket soldiers to take it out - level 1 basic units. Why remove detection and turret reach - absolutely no need. If anything, the mammoth tank should be given a more effective weapon or armor against infantry.
Most people want to nerf mammoth tank, currently it's insanely powerful as now it can kite infantry. The 4 rockets you mentioned. They vaporise almost instantly. Don't get to shoot a single rocket. Mammoth tanks were and still are anti-infantry

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Luftwaffe
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by Luftwaffe » Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:32 pm

Who are "most people"?

No, actually they don't vaporize - test it yourself. Make a map with 2 rifles and 6 rockets (the same cost) vs a mammoth and this is what happens: The mam killed only 1 rifle and 1 rocket.

Not to mention another example where 5 mechanics just take over 5 mammoth husks and instantly convert $2500 into approx $10,000.

The game is already favoring infantry spam - low tech - playstyle - as it provides a better return on investment.
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netnazgul
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by netnazgul » Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:42 pm

Thing is, situations like a lone Mammonth circled by several rockets are hypothetical and non-existing in the game, 99% of the time infantry will rather be incoming from a single side.

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Punsho
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by Punsho » Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:29 pm

Luftwaffe wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:32 pm
Not to mention another example where 5 mechanics just take over 5 mammoth husks and instantly convert $2500 into approx $10,000.
Against an experienced opponent. You killed a few mammoths, now you're going to get their husks right? Nope, your opponent either has more mammoths to defend them or has air/inf support. Rarely are mammoths wiped as they are all round and have a ton of health

You are judging just the raw health and damage. You should always consider range, movement and rotation speeds, vision, cost and kiting ability. Don't forget to put units in real situations

lawANDorder
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by lawANDorder » Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:07 pm

To me it looks like it might be best to give the mammoths some more time? I can hardly believe that they are a problem in competetive 1v1 (how many RAGL games saw mammoths?) - correct me if I'm wrong - and if teamgames still work, it does not seem urgent to take action. To have the opportunity to rebalance a game every ~6 months can also hurt a game - some games haven't had a balance patch for 17 (?) years and got better and better over time (broodwar) because players adapted / developed new tactics. Not saying to wait 17 years but you get the point.

I'm just judging it by the fact that there are no "OMG mammoths are OP" threads or github issues (which existed for artillery for a long time). What issues are caused by the current mammoths despite being "OP" (honest question)? Are teamgames all about mammoths nowadays? What happens before T3 comes online, what do alllies do? Could it be that we see them more often currently because they have just become fun to use?

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Orb
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by Orb » Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:25 pm

My few forays into team games this release involved many, many mammoths. Combined with multiple players IC'ing them, well, there was nothing I could do.

Many players are picking soviets these days in RAGL. I haven't been paying too close attention but I've seen mammoth rush strategies that are strong.

Mammoths are a jack of all trades unit. They need to be weak or they'll just be spammed.

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AoAGeneral1
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by AoAGeneral1 » Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:45 am

Keep in mind with the current version tanks now fire while on the move. Something also changed where vehicles will now stop and fire their longest ranged weapons instead of engaging closer.

EDIT:

There seems to be an odd inherits trait with RedEye in the yaml. In which its showing that RedEye is to inherit Nike which is another missile type with a range of 7c512. But doesnt appear to be inheriting it correctly because its missing the ^ . Daisy chaining it up Nike inherits from AntiAirMissiles and then to AntiGroundMissile which has the range of 5c0. (Which is what E3 currently have.)

Is this an intentional? Or was the inherit of RedEye incorrect?

lawANDorder
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by lawANDorder » Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:52 pm

After reading the thread again, the initial proposal to reduce Mammoth Tank tusk missile range by at least a cell to compensate for opportunity fire looks like a good compromise to me. Wouldn't make them weak but limit the effects opportunity fire. We might want to leave the range for anti air missiles untouched though.

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Punsho
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by Punsho » Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:26 pm

Let's talk Mammoth tanks
When 2 Heavy Tanks (2300$) fight one (2000$) they annihilate it. One is left untouched while the other is left without health. Also both players have Iron Curtain so they can cancel out. This means that in soviet mirrors mammoths aren’t unstoppable.
It’s a different story against allies. One Mammoth (2000$) VS 2 Mediums Tanks (1900$). Mediums win but one tank is lost while the other is left without health. On the other hand allies have Radar Jammer. With them infantry can try killing Mammoths but it’s not that easy. Mammoths have only a bit smaller speed then infantry plus they shoot missiles while moving what means some rockets are going to connect and make infantry go prone further decreasing chances of catching up. Not to forget that vehicles (Radar Jammers) tend to poorly follow infantry. This means that some of the Tusk Missiles are going to kill the pursuers. Another counter are Longbows. 2 of them (4000$) + RJ (1000$) can kill one Mammoth (2000$). But it’s not worth having many Longbows against Soviets in the first place because of this wonder unit called Mobile Flak. Another thing is that that Soviets can fire Iron Curtain and just annihilate your jammers and crush infantry while doing so while destroying all other units you have. It doesn’t help that Chronosphere doesn’t work properly on moving targets.
Anti-tank defences trade only a bit more cost efficiently against Mammoths

I generally dislike all-round units as they are really steamrolly and make for boring gameplay. Mammoth Tank is currently really powerful because it’s ridiculously good against infantry and is hard to stop by all other means cost efficiently. I’m not sure what’s the best way to change it but I definitely want to keep it’s anti-infantry capabilities. In my proposed balance changes I get rid of their cloak detection and change Tusk Missile range from 8c0 to 7c512. It’s mainly done because most AA missiles have this range and because it is a nerf to them. Though an insignificant one.

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ZxGanon
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by ZxGanon » Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:36 pm

In my proposed balance changes I get rid of their cloak detection and change Tusk Missile range from 8c0 to 7c512. It’s mainly done because most AA missiles have this range and because it is a nerf to them. Though an insignificant one.
I totally agree with you thought process and yes Mammoths are too good.

But I would propose a change to splitt the TuskMissiles into Anti Ground and Anti Air and nerf the Anti Ground version from 8c0 to maybe even 6c512.
Mammoth Tanks purpose is not to hunt down air but defend against them and that range is kinda necessary and makes sense due to generalization of AA missiles but the Anti Ground weapon shoud not have such a high range.

Mammoth Tanks are anti infantry artillery with massive amount of HP right now.

Also yes they should also lose their detection radius.

I mean seriously there is a lot oof left over code/yamls strings that should be looked at and reworked like the cloacking mechanic in RA1.

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Punsho
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by Punsho » Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:53 pm

Forgot to mention that it's unfair that Medium Tanks trade with Mammoth Tanks cost neutrally (in bigger numbers Mammoths trade better because of firepower density). Mammoths have many more upsides and advantages compared with them

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Luftwaffe
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by Luftwaffe » Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:49 am

The whole idea of this game is to reward players for investing more into the tech, and beyond just the basic units and buildings.

The crucial example is that 6 rockets and 2 rifles provide a much better return on investment (same cost) than one Mammoth. If your desire is to incentivize people to use more infantry and skip teching-up then this is the way to go.
Punsho gives out another example where 2 medium tanks 1900 kill 1 Mammoth (2000). Imagine those 2 tanks with 1 rifle, probably they would both survive.

It does not make sense to spend time building all the required buildings, wait for Mam build time, and then have a subpar unit. There should be a balance-matrix that favors investing into tech and advanced units.

On another note, I am for giving back "steal money" ability to spies - both factions should be able to steal.
England needs some good special unit - maybe snipers.
The balance basic vs advanced units proposal: slowing down infantry speed for about 10%.

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