TD balance thread

[AoAGeneral1]

1: I can agree for this on missions.

When it comes to skirmish or online play it breaks the A10s. Ive tested it before and comments from pchote make sense. The A10s are to random right now to the point where they fly over the enemies base and they die before getting to their location due to wrong spawn side.

1.5: In C&C95 you can pick up a crate that granted A10s to either side. So Nod has been seen using A10s by this respective. I can agree about look differences.

2: Classic build range for online play breaks the game. Turning it into a base crawling game and lack of need for MCV expansions.

3: MCVs are redeployable. Once you start to hit that outside circle bit you can move the MCV over and deploy again. Or create another expansion piece.

4: Crushable vehicles has been an idea ive had for a long while for Mammoth Tanks but it looks ugly when the husk is left behind/spawned on top of the vehicle. I also like the idea of harvesters able to crush Nod bikes. (An AI bug in C&C95)

5: Interesting concept. This would require some testing but I won't add this idea in until next release. TD already has a large list of changes. As far as friendly fire flame damage its a lot better then in C&C95. Its very small and minimal in TD.

6: Ion strikes do not one shot MCVs. They bring them down to the wittled amount of red. Ions also can't one strike construction yards but requires as you said the A10 combo. Nukes are fine because the construction yard can be repacked and moved.

7: This has already been fixed.

8: Cursor glitch im assuming is caused by the zoom out screen. This issue is more common with people who have more then one screen. (My friend IE has three monitors. Looks highly amusing with ORA.)

9: AI needs work as it is. They build 2-3 regular power plants at the start of the game everytime in example. (This happens in RA aswell)

10: APCs have the flak type guns to destroy aircraft and light vehicles. APCs are not ment to kill other infantry (except crushing) although their damage to infantry is decent. They are meant to be a mixed unit packing infantry in and drop off.

Feedback is always appreciated

[RadicalEdward2]

1: I can agree for this on missions.

When it comes to skirmish or online play it breaks the A10s. Ive tested it before and comments from pchote make sense. The A10s are to random right now to the point where they fly over the enemies base and they die before getting to their location due to wrong spawn side.

1.5: In C&C95 you can pick up a crate that granted A10s to either side. So Nod has been seen using A10s by this respective. I can agree about look differences.

2: Classic build range for online play breaks the game. Turning it into a base crawling game and lack of need for MCV expansions.

3: MCVs are redeployable. Once you start to hit that outside circle bit you can move the MCV over and deploy again. Or create another expansion piece.

4: Crushable vehicles has been an idea ive had for a long while for Mammoth Tanks but it looks ugly when the husk is left behind/spawned on top of the vehicle. I also like the idea of harvesters able to crush Nod bikes. (An AI bug in C&C95)

5: Interesting concept. This would require some testing but I won't add this idea in until next release. TD already has a large list of changes. As far as friendly fire flame damage its a lot better then in C&C95. Its very small and minimal in TD.

6: Ion strikes do not one shot MCVs. They bring them down to the wittled amount of red. Ions also can't one strike construction yards but requires as you said the A10 combo. Nukes are fine because the construction yard can be repacked and moved.

7: This has already been fixed.

8: Cursor glitch im assuming is caused by the zoom out screen. This issue is more common with people who have more then one screen. (My friend IE has three monitors. Looks highly amusing with ORA.)

9: AI needs work as it is. They build 2-3 regular power plants at the start of the game everytime in example. (This happens in RA aswell)

10: APCs have the flak type guns to destroy aircraft and light vehicles. APCs are not ment to kill other infantry (except crushing) although their damage to infantry is decent. They are meant to be a mixed unit packing infantry in and drop off.

Feedback is always appreciated

1. At some point, maybe there could be some cosmetic work done once all the other pressing issues are taken care of

4. lol I didn't know the Harvester crushing bikes was a bug! I thought they were just ahead of their time! Or making a reference to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4UFQWKjy_I

5. Good to hear about the flame situation. I was worried that it was in fact as bad as I remembered.

6. I guess you are right. I'm still new so I haven't really experimented with online yet so I'm kind of used to seeing the AI not move their MCVs.

8. I actually play the game in windowed mode so I can run stuff in the background. This could explain the detection issue.

9. I've notice that as well. On one rare occasion, I actually saw GDI build to Comm Centers (not Advanced ones).

10. That I can also agree with (:

[AoAGeneral1]

The online play is a lot more competitive then skirmish and missions. I do agree on some of your points though such as rough AI tactics. I would like to see the AI pack up their MCVs upon "hearing" nuke missile launch detected and they randomly move to another location. Ive yet to test the AI to see if it builds extra MCVs and knows where to deploy them.

As far as the screens though it feels a bit buggy because sometimes when I hit alt+tab to access the other windows it will flash but keep the game on screen itself. Sometimes you have to click back on the game itself and hit alt+tab again and then it responds.

This also seems to have a glitch issue when no other program runs in the background and the game wants to hog all the attention. (and rightfully so ) so running a program/web browser in the background will help force the game to hide in the back.

Though this could be an issue only on my side as im to lazy to test this. I currently run Winows 7 64 bit Pro SP1.

Try the online play. People are over all helpful on there and its a bit tougher.

[RadicalEdward2]

The online play is a lot more competitive then skirmish and missions. I do agree on some of your points though such as rough AI tactics. I would like to see the AI pack up their MCVs upon "hearing" nuke missile launch detected and they randomly move to another location. Ive yet to test the AI to see if it builds extra MCVs and knows where to deploy them.

As far as the screens though it feels a bit buggy because sometimes when I hit alt+tab to access the other windows it will flash but keep the game on screen itself. Sometimes you have to click back on the game itself and hit alt+tab again and then it responds.

This also seems to have a glitch issue when no other program runs in the background and the game wants to hog all the attention. (and rightfully so ) so running a program/web browser in the background will help force the game to hide in the back.

Though this could be an issue only on my side as im to lazy to test this. I currently run Winows 7 64 bit Pro SP1.

Try the online play. People are over all helpful on there and its a bit tougher.

I've always been hesitant of testing online play because I've literally been in a C&C time capsule since like 1999. I'm one of those guys that played offline only. Because I didn't know there was an online community back then lol

I JUST started using cncnet like last year!

I've NEVER experienced playing against an actual human player on any of the CnC games.
So I know almost every AI behavior front-to-back.
In fact, the PS1 ports of the AI are actually smarter than the PC ones (especially in the Red Alert: Retaliation port) because the PC AI actually gives up trying to attack the player after sending two or three waves. (referring to the original games and not OpenRA)

If you know any ways to find out how I can find people quick to play with, I'd be all ears but, I have a feeling I'm going to be decimated on my first try lol

I know this is a bit off-topic at this point but, has there ever been thoughts about implementing a matchmaking system?

[AoAGeneral1]

Your best bet is to join Discord here https://discord.gg/WhFUP75

C&C95 since 1995 here. So no worries.

If you are worried about being destroyed or what not you can have players help you out. Anjew is one such player who can do that. Otherwise if you want I can give you a list of my aliases in other programs so you can contact me for some 1v1 runs.

You can also look up FiveAces and SoScared on youtube for some helpful guides. (Mainly of the RA side but a lot of strategy from RA can be used in TD. RA is mainly a structure game IE.)

[beetle]

Hello all. Sorry if I sound harsh but I have objections to some of the balance changes, as pretty much ex GDI player.

Add detection to temple of Nod.

artillery minimum range increase from 2c896 to 3c0.

mammoth tank HP increase from 800 to 870.

ion time increase from 3:00 to 4:30.

nuke timer from 5 to 6.

nuke damage spread fallout increased from 1000, 368, 135, 50, 18, 7, 0
to 1000, 700, 500, 300, 150, 50, 0

nuke spread damage increased from 100 to 110. (First spread modifier)

a10 timer increased from 3:30 to 4:00.

MSAM HP from 120 to 180.

Commando weapon range increased from 6c0 to 8c0.

Commando weapon projectile speed increased from 1c682 to 5c682.

Commando price increase from 1000 to 2000.

Commando build time increased from 24 to 32.

Husks interval timer increased from 2 to 6.

Chem damage vs none reduced from 100 to 70.

Chem damage vs armor increased from 50 to 75.

Grenadier accuracy reduced from 213 to 813. (Makes them miss a lot more).

Flamer damage vs armor reduced from 20 to 10. (Flame infantry)

Flamer damage vs none increased from 100 to 110. (Flame infantry.)

Harv build timer increase from 24 to 27.

Harvester HP increase from 600 to 625.

Refinery power reduced from 50 to 40.

Refinery tiberium hold reduced from 2000 to 700.

Silo hold increase from 2000 to 3000.

AGT HP from 600 to 550.

Light Tank price reduced from 700 to 650.

Visceroid spawn reduce from 10 to 5.

Increase all building HP by 100.

Gun turret HP increase from 400 to 410.

Starting units adjusted for light support. (Humvee as GDI vs Buggy as Nod)

MCV build time decreased from 1:36 to 1:00.

Engineer HP increase from 25 to 30.

APC HP increase from 210 to 215.

APC Damage vs light decreased from 105 to 100.

APC cost decreased from 600 to 550.

Recon Bike HP decreased from 120 to 110.

APC movement speed increased from 128 to 132.

MRLS range reduced from 12c0 to 11c0.

MRLS damage vs none reduced from 35 to 25.

Obelisk power reduced from 150 to 90.

Obelisk is now charge fixed.

Chinook speed increased from 140 to 150.

Apache mobile speed decreased from 186 to 180.

Both Orca and Apache turnspeed increased from 4 to 7.

---------

The damages for the aircraft will not be going in. I have no future ideas at this time.

SAM has been revised.

all these are ok, agreeable to even great changes to me, however from these:

Refinery sell no longer refunds.

edit: nvm I can see now

Bike damage increase from 30 to 31.

Airstrip/Weapon Factory power increased from 30 to 50.

Communication Center power increased from 40 to 50.

This hits GDI hard against Nod in 1v1s. Sure apcs seem to be getting buffed but will require 1 plant more to make them, which delays crucial initial defence. GDI harvesters are the default targets for bikes, this means fight is at tiberium, where hamvees are slowed down and as it is they are outranged by bikes, so they can't escape snipes.

Even more than that, getting rocket launchers the vehichles (RML?) will also be delayed as barracks required for apcs eat 20 power so there is 10 shortage and another plant is needed. From our games we know mass apcs don't cut it because Nod freely expands while keeping pressure and GDI can't spare anything because bikes are fast enough to kill any sort of splinter forces and go back to main base harassment.

So in all that, what are the reasons behind power changes?

And in general, how do you view this 1v1 match up should be played? From this changes I see it as mass producing Nod versus GDI turtle to better tech every game, GDI survives the harassment then it may win. Every single game, because why Nod wouldn't be going bikes? Do you view the MU this way?

[AoAGeneral1]

The ref sell got reverted. Itll still be refunded upon sell.

The power changes affected the weapons factory, airstrip, com center, and refinery. The refinery got a power reduction so it is now 40.

This allows players to go power > barracks > ref > ref. where as if you go power > ref > airstrip, you now need another power plant for another structure. Originally the ref sell was to prevent going power > ref > airstrip (harv) > ref (sell ref) trick but since it has been reverted we shall see what happens.

Going barrack plays allows quicker income and quicker defenses. Meaning if you hold attacks off theoretically you should be ahead in econ.

The bike attack damage increase is in response to the harv buff and structure buffs. The bike HP is also reduced so they die quicker (Guard towers, minigunners, etc) so they can't soak as much damage. The price adjustments on the APCs allow barrack plays to mix in well with these units so drop plays become vital for GDI. GDI is not a mobile faction so giving the APCs some extra love and changing a potential build around means GDI has the ability to do quick drop strikes. Which can be very lethal to a player who goes factory/airstrip opener.

[beetle]

Thank you. Sorry for sounding the way I sounded.
Yeah I can see the solution now. Other than that I was surprised to see successful defenses against bikes just today, I will need more practice games.

[AoAGeneral1]

Nah you didn't come off strong or anything. Was just fine

I like collecting balance info on here so I can piece it together and see if I can make something from it. Also some good ideas get put on here.

[anjew]

Can the price of artillery please be increased to match the price of mlrs?
This could be one of the primary reasons going artillery+e3 is so consistent against GDI. Almost 2 artillery can be built for the price of 1 mlrs. And while the 1 mlrs can take out quite a few artillery, light vehicles is this units forte for counters. It really lacks against infantry (one of the primary reasons to make a long range unit). 1 mlrs shooting infantry is a lot less effective than 1 artillery shooting infantry

[AoAGeneral1]

With the amount of buffs/debuffs that is in the next release/playtest its going to offset. In the current release I haven't had much issues with arty+e3 combos as GDI. (If I live that long anyways vs the bike issue).

It turned into games of hummers dealing with both infantry and arty while MRLS or infantry would encroach on the units. If the arty ignores the humvees then the e3 die. If the arty targets the humvee then the e3 die to infantry.

[AoAGeneral1]

Now in the playtest:

Add detection to temple of Nod.

artillery minimum range increase from 2c896 to 3c0.

mammoth tank HP increase from 800 to 870.

ion time increase from 3:00 to 4:30.

nuke timer from 5 to 6.

nuke damage spread fallout increased from 1000, 368, 135, 50, 18, 7, 0
to 1000, 700, 500, 300, 150, 50, 0

nuke spread damage increased from 100 to 110. (First spread modifier)

a10 timer increased from 3:30 to 4:00.

MSAM HP from 120 to 180.

Commando weapon range increased from 6c0 to 8c0.

Commando weapon projectile speed increased from 1c682 to 5c682.

Commando price increase from 1000 to 2000.

Commando build time increased from 24 to 32.

Husks interval timer increased from 2 to 6.

Chem damage vs none reduced from 100 to 70.

Chem damage vs armor increased from 50 to 75.

Grenadier accuracy reduced from 213 to 813. (Makes them miss a lot more).

Flamer damage vs armor reduced from 20 to 10. (Flame infantry)

Flamer damage vs none increased from 100 to 110. (Flame infantry.)

Harv build timer increase from 24 to 27.

Harvester HP increase from 600 to 625.

Airstrip/Weapons factory power increased from 30 to 50.

Command Center power increased from 40 to 50.

Refinery power reduced from 50 to 40.

Refinery tiberium hold reduced from 2000 to 700.

Silo hold increase from 2000 to 3000.

AGT HP from 600 to 550.

Light Tank price reduced from 700 to 650.

Visceroid spawn reduce from 10 to 5.

Increase all building HP by 100.

Gun turret HP increase from 400 to 410.

Starting units adjusted for light support. (Humvee as GDI vs Buggy as Nod)

MCV build time decreased from 1:36 to 1:00.

Engineer HP increase from 25 to 30.

APC HP increase from 210 to 215.

APC Damage vs light decreased from 105 to 100.

APC cost decreased from 600 to 550.

Recon Bike HP decreased from 120 to 110.

APC movement speed increased from 128 to 132.

MRLS range reduced from 12c0 to 11c0.

MRLS damage vs none reduced from 35 to 25.

Obelisk power reduced from 150 to 90.

Obelisk is now charge fixed.

Chinook speed increased from 140 to 150.

Apache mobile speed decreased from 186 to 180.

Both Orca and Apache turnspeed increased from 4 to 7.

[beetle]

AoA so except for ref, the power changes have been reverted? Looking at latest notes I can't see them here.

[camundahl]

this is the current playtest hosted on www.openra.net?

[AoAGeneral1]

@bettle:

Quite right. Added them into the list.

@camundahl:

Aye that is correct.