TD balance thread

[anjew]

Ref selling should be nerfed a bit if harvs are going to be changed. Preferably either no minigunner spawns, or no return cash.

Yeah i suggest both.
I wanna test this harv shit out

[MustaphaTR]

In RA2, selling a ref gives like 300 while it costs 2000 and original selling value would be lot more. Not sure what is the case for OpenRA but just wanted to say.

[AoAGeneral1]

Refinery selling is something I can look into doing. There are some ideas that sprang up while on work here. I will list the following soon.

First off, I want to thank the community for their feedback and input on the balances of TD. Your feedback is important despite what I may say such as "I still strongly believe its this". This does not mean that this will be 100% definite and will be changed. All feedback is important. A few examples listed here:

I am currently looking to test silos mentioned in a thread post http://www.sleipnirstuff.com/forum/view ... 82&t=19798 mainly for RA. However an idea sprang up about it.

I am currently looking to drop all harv changes and have the following implemented.

Silos capacity increased to 3000 holding.

Refinery capacity decreased to 500 holding.

This will not only promote silos to be built but also put a cap on mass harvs. Silos will also need to be heavily protected or you could suffer consequences.

Silos could also be increased in build time with some buffs to HP to prevent some quick snipes but careless protection would cause such to happen.

Tiberium mechanic. I want to have a mechanic put in TD where the following happens:

Silo being destroyed causes a massive explosion. Enough to blow power plants and other units around it.

Harvesters explode while carrying tiberium. Causing a possible harvester chain reaction to happen. (IE: one harvester dies another 2 around it explode in the process)

Refinery explosion. Refinery to explode causing minimal damage but enough to do serious damage to light and infantry units.

This would prevent mass harvesters and careful protection on the refineries and silos while at the sametime prevent clustering. Caution in having multiple harvesters, silos, and refineries in one area.

The following ideas may not be enough but other methods can be done as well such as the following:

Decrease Harvester payload from 700 to 600.
Increase harvester payload drop off timer. (This would cause other harvesters to have to wait. Promotes more need of extra refineries while running the risk of explosion if not protected.)

Feedback appreciated.

[Sleipnir]

That sounds interesting and worth at try, but i'm concerned about the harvester explosions: if you turn them into early-tech demo trucks, then players will use them as early-tech demo trucks...

Better to keep them non-explosive, and explain that the tiberium becomes explosive once it is refined and concentrated. This is also less inconsistent with the universe's storyline, where it is well established that regular green tib isn't explosive (but blue tib is).

[anjew]

This is also less inconsistent with the universe's storyline, where it is well established that regular green tib isn't explosive (but blue tib is).

Is that in later games? Because In TS green tib still explodes, it just does one third of the damage.

I think with careful balancing, the harvesters could be done in a way that its only benefit is in a last ditch attack. Harvesters are the most important asset in TD so throwing them away in normal attacks will be a bit foolish since it will put you behind in eco. Im not sure about them being able to blow up valuable tech but first tier power plants and defence structures makes sense to me (with blue tib and a much lesser explosion with green).

The only consideration I can think of is using this in conjunction with a Nod bike attack. If you use the harv to bait defense structures or use it to blow up next to infantry then it could be a bit strong since the only counter is to not shoot it

[Norman_]

can make some maps to test silo, ref and harvester ideas once new release is out. its possible with gdi eco, defense, 2nd mcv + tech build + mlrs and orcas to still suck with it vs good nod player, just not easy for nod once gdi spams agts, as, ion ready.. nod just has to be successful with early attacks to get the advantage and spam gdi to death from that point or they are more or less lost vs a good gdi player in the lategame. people "just" have to scout like a boss and be able to attack, taking care about building the base and trying to expand at the same time lol
a nod spam with good scouting, timing and rally points from all 2-4 airstrips
directly to the gdi base generates enough pressure to break gdi castles.
even now without the eco changes (the more expensive harvester idea), nod has the units vs eco and defense
gdi. i mean it already takes ages to be able to generate pressure with gdi playing like that and the changes make it maybe to hard for gdi to survive defensive tech builds. but worth to test it. % gdi eco tech castle vs nod spam as much as possible games again then.

on insert names best map evor there is such a harvester tiberium explosion but i think that together with the other changes would be to much for regular rules. making silos more important is a nice thing, oil/hospital should be recapturable too, to make them finally useful. capturing a normal oil derrick just isnt worth it.

[AoAGeneral1]

For harvesters used as demo trucks this can be adjusted. There are many things to test the harvs out with but starting with the explosion mechanic on silos and refineries makes sense since it will make these important and dangerous if not kept guarded.

This could also put engineer plays into practice. May consider doing one engineer captures.

@Norman:

Ive actually done games where the spam tactic is used more in particular the bike and buggy use. Players are using medium tanks with hummer builds which completely negates this build. Ive also seen games where the GDI player has a major loss in assests compared to the Nod player but GDI keeps gaining ground due to unit masses and economy builds. Scouting isn't an entire factor if you already know what the GDI player is doing. The econ build is just that strong.

I am currently doing tests now depending on what players choose. No longer do I strictly play random or Nod only I choose opposite factions. So far my GDI econ build has won 100% of the games.

[Graion Dilach]

Is that in later games? Because In TS green tib still explodes, it just does one third of the damage.

In TibSun, harvesters exploded based on the amount of money they stored. However only blue tiberium was explosive indeed (with chainreaction and all that), asin specific weapons could blow up the tiberium on the ground and cause chainreactions that way.

The idea of making refineries and silos sitting nukes in anyone's base is crazy. At best.

[AoAGeneral1]

Silo being destroyed causes a massive explosion. Enough to blow power plants and other units around it.

Nukes can destroy up to temple of nods in one blow. Silos will not be able too. The worst damage it can do is moderate to heavy and power plants. (With testing T2 power could be made to survive).

All of this requires testing.

[Blackened]

I know engis have been brought up before but i think they should be revisited. In the game against orb where I went for the stealth apc cheese i produced 5 engis. A huge investment that (partnered with ignoring what happened in my own base) cost me the game. The first 2 engis actually got killed before they capped since they had to run to the center of the building. If the engi worked like in RA that would have been better or if path finding could be improved, or even if it only takes 2 to cap, I think that would be a better situation.

[Sleipnir]

#5183 / #11416.

[anjew]

I know engis have been brought up before but i think they should be revisited. In the game against orb where I went for the stealth apc cheese i produced 5 engis. A huge investment that (partnered with ignoring what happened in my own base) cost me the game. The first 2 engis actually got killed before they capped since they had to run to the center of the building. If the engi worked like in RA that would have been better or if path finding could be improved, or even if it only takes 2 to cap, I think that would be a better situation.

I'm not against halving the price. This makes oil derricks a bit more useful since they dont have to wait as long to start paying off and 2 engineers are always required to capture an enemy structure.

[AoAGeneral1]

Could try playing around with engineer priced at 250 but this can also do a few other things.

Capturing an oil derrick is now much cheaper and gains your tick price back.

Losing the engineer isn't a big deal. Where currently right now they are a prize to kill.

Myself, I do like them priced at 500 but the problem is mainly how the units enter inside of the building as sleipnir mentioned in the tickets. I had someone mention about 1 capture engineers in IIRC awhile ago and its been in my head for awhile.

[anjew]

Doesnt have to be $250 but even $300 would make them more useful especially to use as vehicle captures since half the vehicles cost less than an engineer.

Which reminds me that husks need to ask longer

[AoAGeneral1]

With some extra testing GDI is still winning by a large margin vs Nod. With the silo tests GDI instead builds gun turrets as defenses while still amassing harvesters on the go. The player never needed to build silos either despite the silo changes (500 ref capacity and 3000 silo capacity)

Which means im going back to the harv nerf idea.

Harvester build time increased from 24 to 29.

Harvester price increase from 1000 to 1100-1200. (Still testing)

Refinery power reduced from 50 to 40.

Reinery cost increase from 1500 to 1600-1700. (Still testing)

Selling refinery no longer gives refunds.

--------

Tested the MCV changes as suggested from 1:34 to 1:00. GDI was able to create bases more quickly and bring up AGTs faster.

There is an element that is missing though and I think it might be the critical piece to this.

The Obelisk of light. This structure is not being built because of its flawed bug in targeting. Bringing the obelisk to a Com Center tech level doesn't bring to much in terms of its need as they fall from GDI units due to multi targeting issues.

This is going to be the main focus after release as it could prevent the harv changes. This structure is in need of working order if Nod wants to stifle the GDI medium tanks en massed. https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/issues/11415