TD balance thread

AoAGeneral1 · Post by **AoAGeneral1** » Wed Aug 31, 2016 6:10 am

While the map does influence the styles of plays and some maps are a bit in favor of faction type this is one thing I want to try and cycle down as much as possible. I know this won't be a thing I can get rid of entirely but if I can shave off as much as I can then all the better.

Im going to leave the APC as is for now until the next release comes around. I can't make changes right now anyways due to the milestones on the way. So a list of upcoming ideas will be made shortly.

For now, im going to continue working on the aircraft mechanic. Im on the fence of either scrapping the idea or pushing it more. If scrapped ill make some tweaks to the current models.

CampinJeff · Post by **CampinJeff** » Sat Sep 03, 2016 2:13 am

Would making the bike require a hand of Nod as a prereq change much? Doing this would interrupt a standard bike buggy rush build, and that extra time and money spent on a hand could buy GDI some breathing space.

anjew · Post by **anjew** » Sat Sep 03, 2016 2:36 am

CampinJeff wrote: ↑Would making the bike require a hand of Nod as a prereq change much? Doing this would interrupt a standard bike buggy rush build, and that extra time and money spent on a hand could buy GDI some breathing space.

Its an interesting suggestion for sure considering the APC requires a barracks and it is a much less useful unit. Im for introducing this. A very common thing brought up is how OP the Nod rush can be. Some of this is offset by the planes however not every map is left vs right. I think a Hand of Nod requirement wouldn't be detrimental to bike mass but would at least buy some time as CampinJeff said. This would also means no need to buff APC yet.

Im curious to see what AoA's opinion is

Im also not against nerfing the refinery selling. its only a $150 loss. Removing all the sell money would do fine and probably still only be a minor upset to players using this strategy.

Something in the last release also made it a lot easier to block. I'm not sure this is something in your realm to fix AoA but war factory blocking specifically is op because Nod units don't get blocked. I don't care too much about refs but the fact Nod can still get its units out and GDI can be easily exploited makes this a great cheese tactic.

AoAGeneral1 · Post by **AoAGeneral1** » Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:33 am

After some idea checks I will have to reply about requiring the hand of Nod for bike tech in need of testing. There are several pros and cons to this but I don't really want to say anything about this until its been tested.

Currently with people massing bikes the counter to this is infantry. Even against buggies if you have enough they can destroy these units. The primary issue relies on how mobile Nod can be and the tech switch they can do.

Also keeping in mind of the incoming next release is buggies will be doing a lot less damage vs buildings and armor. But the Hand tech is something that should be tested.

Refinery sell nerf. Also requires testing. This was something that was done in CNC3 to try and offset people doing the refinery building and selling tricks. I want to say there is a different way then doing this but as mentioned will need testing. Not entirely a fan of how CNC3 did their balance changes.

As far as additional balances go they will need to wait until after release. Im collecting a list of desired changes in the future.

Post by **Sleipnir** » Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:50 am

With regards to air units: we have hopefully finally fixed the issues with having groups of aircraft share helipads/airfields for reloading. If this works out well for the RA mod in the next release then it might be worth investigating restoring the requirement to reload at the helipad in TD.

AoAGeneral1 · Post by **AoAGeneral1** » Sun Sep 04, 2016 8:21 pm

I was under the impression that psydev made the changes for a balance implementation. It was instead an issue with rearming mechanics?

If thats the case I wouldn't mind investigating the reload compartment if it proves a working stand point in RA. This would actually allow for additional buffs to aircraft in other ways more easily then the other mechanic.

Post by **Sleipnir** » Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:21 pm

The in-air reloading actually goes right back to my original circa-2011 TD balancing. It came from a combination of wanting to steer the gameplay more towards Generals and C&C3, and the reloading behavior being completely broken. I remember having several arguments with psydev over it later, because he wanted to change back to the still-kind-of-broken reloading behaviour.

anjew · Post by **anjew** » Mon Sep 05, 2016 1:59 am

Reload would be nice to work with. I think its a good idea, mainly to keep in line with the originals and other mods but i reckon it will be a very unpopular decision amomg the teamgamers unless they are given a good buff. Mass air is always common and this will kill the idea of having 10 plus orcas

AoAGeneral1 · Post by **AoAGeneral1** » Mon Sep 05, 2016 5:31 am

Personally I wouldn't mind the reload. I was under the impression is was for balance reasons. But if we can get the reload mechanic to work I would prefer that for the following reasons:

Giving aircraft a major buff is more vital now due to them having to go back to re arm.

Prevent mass air builds and able to scale the prices on the structure. (IE increase price on air pads if needed rather then the unit itself.)

Of course as mentioned (I think I saw it on IIRC) if the RA one works.

CampinJeff · Post by **CampinJeff** » Mon Sep 05, 2016 5:44 am

I think visceroids should be looked at. Situations like these: https://youtu.be/aYH3mfZZeGk?t=12m10s
for example are...inappropriate in my point of view for a 1v1 matchup. Having that many spawn and do that much damage to your army without your opponent having to do anything feels very out of place in a competitive scenario.

anjew · Post by **anjew** » Mon Sep 05, 2016 5:54 am

CampinJeff wrote: ↑I think visceroids should be looked at. Situations like these: https://youtu.be/aYH3mfZZeGk?t=12m10s
for example are...inappropriate in my point of view for a 1v1 matchup. Having that many spawn and do that much damage to your army without your opponent having to do anything feels very out of place in a competitive scenario.

That is the first time i have seen that many spawn in a row in an actual game lol
Normally they aren't that prolific but they are the sole reason quite a few maps don't get played

AoAGeneral1 · Post by **AoAGeneral1** » Mon Sep 05, 2016 8:05 am

That is simply a stroke of bad luck. They only have a % chance of spawning from tiberium death and chem trooper death. Its very rare something like that happens.

As you can see it happen from just one infantry death each it killed. So while it was annoying in that game it happened, its extremely rare it does happen.

As anjew mentioned however, there are a few maps where they are apart of the map and they wander far to much. Leaving several maps unplayable (Hour Glass IE)

jaZz_KCS · Post by **jaZz_KCS** » Mon Sep 05, 2016 8:27 am

AoAGeneral1 wrote: ↑
As anjew mentioned however, there are a few maps where they are apart of the map and they wander far to much. Leaving several maps unplayable (Hour Glass IE)

A certain [east vs west-ish] 2v2 player TD map also comes to mind where there is a pack of three viceroids each on both sides right from the get go. With some bad luck this rather often leads to an early knockout for one of each side's players.

CampinJeff · Post by **CampinJeff** » Mon Sep 05, 2016 8:31 am

The pre-spawned visceroids is another case (where I simply avoid playing the map entirely), the issue is that this visceroid-RNG based system exists in the first place. If it does occur in a chain reaction it's pretty lethal and can potentially turn tables around simply because you accidentally let 1 infantry sit in tiberium. Even more so of a problem in the beginning of a game where they start chipping away at your harvester and your scouting vehicle(s) don't have enough firepower to keep your harvester healthy.

Maybe an option to turn off infantry on tiberium visceroids would be neat, as turning them off entirely could potentially break a-moving chems, or simply make the probability even lower.

AoAGeneral1 · Post by **AoAGeneral1** » Mon Sep 05, 2016 8:37 am

I would have to disagree. If you leave infantry in the tiberium then its the players fault for doing so. As for the Chems they have a RNG base system to create a random visceroid but its not on either players side. In several scenarios the visceroid turns on the chems instead which can help the opponent player out.

While pre-spawned visceroids can be changed around to prevent more wandering issues or perhaps remain stationary, I do think its in a good position if they die in tiberium or by chems.