Help Newbies
Make OpenRA more noob friendly by enabling "Explored Map"
I think shroud definitely should be on by default. I agree with MicroBit, especially on that it would take away a rewarding exploration aspect of the game.
If the server settings are preserved in the next release then that would be a win for everybody.
As for turning the crate off by default, I think would be a huge mistake. The large majority of players are playing OpenRA for fun. Crates are fun! Crated are the RNG that lessens the pressure off everybody, signaling that it's a game not meant to take seriously.
If the server settings are preserved in the next release then that would be a win for everybody.
As for turning the crate off by default, I think would be a huge mistake. The large majority of players are playing OpenRA for fun. Crates are fun! Crated are the RNG that lessens the pressure off everybody, signaling that it's a game not meant to take seriously.
Same argument could be made for shroud (minus RNG)SoScared wrote: ↑ As for turning the crate off by default, I think would be a huge mistake. The large majority of players are playing OpenRA for fun. Crates are fun! Crated are the RNG that lessens the pressure off everybody, signaling that it's a game not meant to take seriously.
- Graion Dilach
- Posts: 277
- Joined: Fri May 15, 2015 5:57 pm
If I may add my 2 cents here
IMHO, Shroud is bad. Really bad ^^
I agree to all the already cited con- arguments (players who don't know/remember the map, capturable oil/buildings, detailed positioning, shroud resetting ...), and I want to add a few more :
- Teamwork : JOo cited the example of a player giving directions to newbies for an early positioning. But for me, that's an argument against shroud: you can't ping so. directly into the shroud, you have to keep pinging him until he arrives to the wanted place, which is simply annoying for everyone. When you want to say "Go mid", where is mid ?
- Psychological effect : more than only not knowing the map, I think shroud adds a scary/unconfortable effect, that may make you play on the defensive. I've seen so many new players building tons of units, staying in base, partly because of the shroud, because they didn't have a clue where to go.
- Spending early soldiers : it forces to spend an early barracks + soldiers, or another scouting unit, which may not be on your build order.
- Comfort / esthetics : AFAIK I don't know any modern game that uses shroud, which is esthetically ugly as hell, IMO.
For me, it is more an historical aspect we kept of the original game. Maybe it had its meaning at that time, especially as it was more Singleplayer oriented. However, we don't have to stick to the old era. Otherwise, we would still have no Fog, like in the old RA or Tiberian Sun, which would have been horrible !
- Gap tactics : a final detail but an explored map make the gap tactics more meaningful. All players would see that black spot (might be mobile), meaning that something is hidden underneath (or not !). Also, a base full of Gap Generators will be secure, but on the other hand hints to a dangerous/defensive enemy (esp. for FFA).
With no shroud, we would be sure all players would have the same information.
IMHO, Shroud is bad. Really bad ^^
I agree to all the already cited con- arguments (players who don't know/remember the map, capturable oil/buildings, detailed positioning, shroud resetting ...), and I want to add a few more :
- Teamwork : JOo cited the example of a player giving directions to newbies for an early positioning. But for me, that's an argument against shroud: you can't ping so. directly into the shroud, you have to keep pinging him until he arrives to the wanted place, which is simply annoying for everyone. When you want to say "Go mid", where is mid ?
- Psychological effect : more than only not knowing the map, I think shroud adds a scary/unconfortable effect, that may make you play on the defensive. I've seen so many new players building tons of units, staying in base, partly because of the shroud, because they didn't have a clue where to go.
- Spending early soldiers : it forces to spend an early barracks + soldiers, or another scouting unit, which may not be on your build order.
- Comfort / esthetics : AFAIK I don't know any modern game that uses shroud, which is esthetically ugly as hell, IMO.
For me, it is more an historical aspect we kept of the original game. Maybe it had its meaning at that time, especially as it was more Singleplayer oriented. However, we don't have to stick to the old era. Otherwise, we would still have no Fog, like in the old RA or Tiberian Sun, which would have been horrible !
- Gap tactics : a final detail but an explored map make the gap tactics more meaningful. All players would see that black spot (might be mobile), meaning that something is hidden underneath (or not !). Also, a base full of Gap Generators will be secure, but on the other hand hints to a dangerous/defensive enemy (esp. for FFA).
With no shroud, we would be sure all players would have the same information.
Last edited by FRenzy on Tue Jun 28, 2016 9:07 pm, edited 3 times in total.
- Murto the Ray
- Posts: 487
- Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:34 pm
Arent the Civ games also randomly generated? That would mean no one is at a disadvantage or advantage due to this.r34ch wrote: ↑-Snip-
Last edited by Murto the Ray on Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that. If you spawn in a corner or not near to resources then you are disadvantaged.Murto the Ray wrote: ↑ That would mean no one is at a disadvantage or advantage due to this.
I think Civilization uses shroud to replicate the idea of not knowing what the world looks like, since you are just a starting civilisation. So it's game specific.
Also Civilization isn't an RTS game.
- Murto the Ray
- Posts: 487
- Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:34 pm
The comment says due to the shroud. Not that no one is at a disadvantage.anjew wrote: ↑-Snip-
The core argument for removing shroud by default looks to be about promoting the competetive aspect of the game - how it balances the game for new players and allows for everyone to focus more on strategy. I believe the vast majority of new and casual players don't really care much about this aspect when they join in to share a game of ORA with their friends.
Shroud provides mystery and exploration. Fun! Competetive players often checks 'explored map' for competetive games, when facing new maps or perhaps upon player requests. I've gotten used to explored maps due to frequently being a spectator, where 'explored map' is a huge advantage.
It's possible that enabling 'explored map' by default is consequencial mostly for competetive players - not casual players, and possibly makes ORA less fun to play when it's focus shifts more over to competetive play, "fair and balanced".
Also I'd pay more attention to the thread discussion rather than the poll, especially given its' start bias, shaming newbies with the 'no' option. Why would anyone wanna vote for that. Perhaps set up a new neutral poll.
Shroud provides mystery and exploration. Fun! Competetive players often checks 'explored map' for competetive games, when facing new maps or perhaps upon player requests. I've gotten used to explored maps due to frequently being a spectator, where 'explored map' is a huge advantage.
It's possible that enabling 'explored map' by default is consequencial mostly for competetive players - not casual players, and possibly makes ORA less fun to play when it's focus shifts more over to competetive play, "fair and balanced".
Also I'd pay more attention to the thread discussion rather than the poll, especially given its' start bias, shaming newbies with the 'no' option. Why would anyone wanna vote for that. Perhaps set up a new neutral poll.
As a new player myself I believe that the best way to help is to just give general advice as opposed to making it easier. New players will eventually get familiar with the maps and learn from their own mistakes. Having to scout your own surroundings I think is a fundamental part of the game and good practice to adopt. Having the map explored would encourage laziness in new players imo ie. Not naturally setting up a base perimeter with rifle men because you feel you don't have too because it's already explored? Idk that's just my opinion. Also I think that no matter how many times you have played a map you don't know it with 100% certainty. You have a very good knowledge of the map knowing choke points, ore locations etc. but the difference in knowing its general location in the shroud as opposed to knowing with absolute certainty is a difference in clicks. 1 click when it's explored with no need of micro management as opposed to manually having to pin point it in the shroud. Idk Food for thought
Peace
Peace
I think explored map should be enabled by default. First of all it doesn't reveal anything that you are not supposed to know and it seems kind of backwards to have shroud on since I don't think any modern RTS uses it? There’s a good reason for that and shroud looks ugly and weird too.
Usually it's not a big deal if you know the map but some maps got special designs which means that you can easily mess up with the location of buildings if you don't remember the exact location of e.g. trees or other things. It can be hard to remember the exact location of e.g. oil if they are far away from the starting locations as well.
It can mostly be a problem on some maps when you might want to move your mcv at the beginning and if you play with random spawns and shroud on you'll most likely have to waste valuable time figuring out where on the map you are before you move. This could limit the possible strategies and tactics that you may use on some maps and I think that's the main reason for having shroud off. Sometimes it can be important to know the exact location of certain things not just approximate.
Let's take a simple example. Let's say there are two viable strategies on a map:
I) You can stay at your starting location
II) You can move to an ore field closer to the center
Then option II) might not be worth to consider with shroud on and random spawns since you simply got to waste too much time finding out where your starting location is.
All in all, I don’t think there's any point having shroud on. I don't think it's mostly about helping newbies since I think it's actually more important to have shroud off when playing competitively.
Usually it's not a big deal if you know the map but some maps got special designs which means that you can easily mess up with the location of buildings if you don't remember the exact location of e.g. trees or other things. It can be hard to remember the exact location of e.g. oil if they are far away from the starting locations as well.
It can mostly be a problem on some maps when you might want to move your mcv at the beginning and if you play with random spawns and shroud on you'll most likely have to waste valuable time figuring out where on the map you are before you move. This could limit the possible strategies and tactics that you may use on some maps and I think that's the main reason for having shroud off. Sometimes it can be important to know the exact location of certain things not just approximate.
Let's take a simple example. Let's say there are two viable strategies on a map:
I) You can stay at your starting location
II) You can move to an ore field closer to the center
Then option II) might not be worth to consider with shroud on and random spawns since you simply got to waste too much time finding out where your starting location is.
All in all, I don’t think there's any point having shroud on. I don't think it's mostly about helping newbies since I think it's actually more important to have shroud off when playing competitively.