longbow

[scorp]

I always thought it could be a cool upgrade if they had a lot faster of a firing rate, unload their entire payload in just a second or so and then "get the heck out of dodge".

wasn't the Yak a lot more like that in original RA? My Memory is Fading, but i remember it firing a Long stream of machine gun fire, maybe doing 2 runs, one back and one forth, not the 4-5 runs it is doing in OpenRa until it has depleted its ammo.

[GeneralFrost]

I always thought it could be a cool upgrade if they had a lot faster of a firing rate, unload their entire payload in just a second or so and then "get the heck out of dodge".

wasn't the Yak a lot more like that in original RA? My Memory is Fading, but i remember it firing a Long stream of machine gun fire, maybe doing 2 runs, one back and one forth, not the 4-5 runs it is doing in OpenRa until it has depleted its ammo.

I think it would make sense if it can fire very fast, but only so much as needed to kill the target.

would also make a lot of sense for the longbow...did you ever saw them in action in real life ?

they hide behind a hill, then just for a few seconds go up, fire like 8 rockets at enemy tanks, and immidiatelly go cover behind the hill again

[Speedy]

yeah but this is not a very realistic scenario... he wont attack you just with hinds more likely he will attack you with a mix of v2s, mammots, some rocket soldiers

Which 'he' are you talking about now, Frost? It's still a legitimate strategy to send a bunch of Hinds in to scout or do a pre-main force attack..

You're trying to make the Hind seem better than the Longbow, but the scenario of someone attacking you with Hinds is 'not very realistic'?

Helipads can be built pretty early in game, compared to other units. I think it's a fairly realistic scenario that someone sends a bunch of Hinds in. In fact, lemme write down a 'note to self' to do precisely that when I ever encounter you.

Admittedly, using Longbows as counter attack is less realistic, as Hinds can be build way sooner than Longbows can.. but it is still a realistic idea that someone would send a force of Hinds rather than some mass of land units.

Every player has their own tactics and strategies. That's why I like about RTS games with multiple options, everyone has their own way of playing. The Longbow fill a niche in which they can be incredibly useful.. and all units do. Even a small group of normal Infantry has their own way of being useful.

[GeneralFrost]

yeah but this is not a very realistic scenario... he wont attack you just with hinds more likely he will attack you with a mix of v2s, mammots, some rocket soldiers

Which 'he' are you talking about now, Frost? It's still a legitimate strategy to send a bunch of Hinds in to scout or do a pre-main force attack..

You're trying to make the Hind seem better than the Longbow, but the scenario of someone attacking you with Hinds is 'not very realistic'?

Helipads can be built pretty early in game, compared to other units. I think it's a fairly realistic scenario that someone sends a bunch of Hinds in. In fact, lemme write down a 'note to self' to do precisely that when I ever encounter you.

Admittedly, using Longbows as counter attack is less realistic, as Hinds can be build way sooner than Longbows can.. but it is still a realistic idea that someone would send a force of Hinds rather than some mass of land units.

Every player has their own tactics and strategies. That's why I like about RTS games with multiple options, everyone has their own way of playing. The Longbow fill a niche in which they can be incredibly useful.. and all units do. Even a small group of normal Infantry has their own way of being useful.

this is all just theoretical talking now... players almsot never attack with only hinds because its so easy to shut down.

maybe they try to kill your mvc with like 5-6 yaks, that could happen, but if you are not very fast with your reaction time your longbow will only kill them after the killed your mvc (if that is your only anti -air)

just look at actual games, that is the best evidence if a unit is over/underpowered longbow is not used very often. what happens, players build it one time, it is not very effective (for its price) and they dont build it anymore.

only games I saw someone using longbows, was when he had so much resources that it doesnt really matter , and would have won anyways.

[Speedy]

Isn't all of this just theoretical? You wanted reasons why the Longbow doesn't get buffed and basically went 'hurdur it's bleeding useless'.

Maybe you've simply never faced an opponent using Longbows properly. As long as they're in the game, they are usable, and thus theoretically they could be used.

Instead you go 'players almost never'- ALMOST being keyword. And who says that ALL replays are actually uploaded and viewable? Hell, pretty sure none of mine are.

There could be a player out there who is in this scenario right now, but all I get are 'it's improbable', 'almost never', 'just theoretical'..

Are we seriously having a discussion about how something is ACTUALLY POSSIBLE but you refuse to believe it because the chance is low according to you? I'm getting kinda tired of the 'yeah, but' deal here, man.

You just keep coming up with new reasons why my theoretical scenario wouldn't work and before you even get to a proper reasoning, you decide to talk about something completely different.

"Try to take out your mvc with like 5-6 yaks." Really? Okay, let's take your situation. Super fragile, and weak units, with it's only buff being low cost and higher speed, attacks my base. Not only have you apparantly build 5-6 airfields to do that, you're also sending units that can be wrecked EASILY by any form of anti-air. But say I use Longbows only. High damage, armor piercing missiles VS extremely fragile units. Uhh..

Honestly, I'm just wondering what you're even trying to discuss right now.

[GeneralFrost]

Well, I just watched almost all the casts on youtube, and I think I didn't find a single one where the longbow was used. (maybe a few, but it's a small %)

That is a like a sample size of ~50-100, so it's statistically significant.

If the longbow wasn't used in any of these matches, it's an indication it's just too weak, and players dont use it, because of that reason (because they want to win, and making weak units is not the best way to achieve this)

you can always come up with theoretical scenarios to prove a unit is useful, but to actually balance a game, you have to observe which strategies the best players choose to beat their opponents. If these strategies never or almost never include a unit, it's an indication this unit is just weak and there is a better unit that can replace it.

but of course your argument is valid that openRA is still quite young and the players still didnt find the best strategies, and there might actually exist a good strategy including longbow use.

[scorp]

I always thought it could be a cool upgrade if they had a lot faster of a firing rate, unload their entire payload in just a second or so and then "get the heck out of dodge".

wasn't the Yak a lot more like that in original RA? My Memory is Fading, but i remember it firing a Long stream of machine gun fire, maybe doing 2 runs, one back and one forth, not the 4-5 runs it is doing in OpenRa until it has depleted its ammo.

I think it would make sense if it can fire very fast, but only so much as needed to kill the target.

would also make a lot of sense for the longbow...did you ever saw them in action in real life ?

they hide behind a hill, then just for a few seconds go up, fire like 8 rockets at enemy tanks, and immidiatelly go cover behind the hill again

i remember Yak's as being rather deadly attackers even against larger Groups of infantry in RA. in Openra, they conserve ammo, which is good when attacking single Targets, but they seem to have lost the area effect they had (IIRC) in RA. I guess they're still popular with the MP Players because they're annoying for the Opponent

i'm gonna give it a test and have Longbows fire their anti-ground rockets in bursts in my game. Though the risk is that they'll be Overkill against light Units, wasting ammo in the process. Another Option is to make their Anti ground rockets just a tad less useless against unarmoured opponents, allowing them to deal with at least a lone rocket trooper.

also the Hind.... must be with the soviet side for me, as it bases on a real-life unit. Which gives rise to a balancing conflict with the Yak...

Hehe well, many thanks to the OpenRA guys that we can dabble with these things, it's great fun.

on a side note, Transport heli's: do they only have the Option to always land when idle or might there be a way to tell the Transport heli to hover instead of landing (over any Kind of ground) e.g. by introducing a new short cut for "forced hovering" or "forced landing" ?

[PersianImmortal]

Buff longbows, increase speed and damage
Make MiGs fire air to air
#RealTalk

[Speedy]

How to insult one or more people in one hashtag or less:

#RealTalk

Good job.

[Hiro]

Heheheh, I actually chuckled in real life. But honestly, making MiGs fire AA rockets too is a big question, and probably not one for this thread.

As for the longbow, I don't think there is any more discussion that would be worth having about them without waiting for the "pro" players to mature strategies for a while or testing things out ourselves like Scorp is.