Balance Openra

Openra needs balance

Discussion about the game and its default mods.
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anjew
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Post by anjew »

SirCake wrote: @anjew crlf suggested a "fire delay" not a turn rate reduction.
netnazgul wrote: AA gun turret turn rate could also be played with
SirCake wrote: just lower the damage.
What's damage do you suggest then? It's one thing to suggest something but if you're making a demand you must have gathered some evidence or testing figures to back up that the damage is the only problem, not its speed or accuracy.

Also are you implying that AA AOE is an engine limitation? Because the information I interpreted is that planes of the same type operate on the same horizontal axis so they don't suffer from the problems of vertical axis falloff.
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Graion Dilach
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Post by Graion Dilach »

Indeed there are issues with how OpenRA handles spread - https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/issues/14150 - compared to RA2 which used a crude altitude check (it doubled the distance from the epicenter of the explosion for damage calculation if the affected unit was airborne).

Ofcourse neither current OpenRA neither RA2 method were good IMO, and it'd be better to just use the actual distance (including the Z axis) for damage delivery.
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SirCake
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Post by SirCake »

@anjew I assume no engine limitations, i think air AOE is perfectly possible. It just isnt a solution.

Are you asking for "AA-Gun is OP" evidence?
1 See my previous post with the picture. AA gun kills assets the fastest of them all.
2 A yak circling idly just outside AA gun range is killed in a half circle if AA gun sees it.
3 You can't get away from an AA gun pop without significant losses even with the fast MIG.
4 You can place an AA gun 2 tiles away from a sam site and it will STILL cover all of the area of the sam site as well.
5 In team games/big maps Soviet Paradrop and Parabombs get shot down casually by two AA guns.

There. That is crushing evidence that the DPS of that thing is way to high!
Solution I did also offer in a previous post. reduce damage by 60% (yes, that much) and improve vision by +1 cell.

I will post a testmap with those parameters later.
EDIT: Map done
http://resource.openra.net/maps/23272
Last edited by SirCake on Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Hodor
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Post by Hodor »

Solution I did also offer in a previous post. reduce damage by 60% (yes, that much) and improve vision by +1 cell.

that would make a humba humba humba humba necessary instead of a humba humba hum.

very good! i assist the suggestion.

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AoAGeneral1
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Post by AoAGeneral1 »

SirCake wrote: @anjew crlf suggested a "fire delay" not a turn rate reduction.

Reducing the accuraccy is equivalent to reducing the damage output, but adding an AOE to the AA gun in return to "slightly" reducing damage really isnt a debuff.
Also AA-AOE is how things work in RA2 and it would require a completely new balance effort.

I dont see why a nerf must be super complicated and indirect (and ineffective), just lower the damage.
Because if the AA Gun misses shots its doing less damage in compared to do 100% direct hit damages. If it misses with a slight AoE increase that means its only doing 50-90% of its damage in a non-constant fire rate.

That is actually a damage nerf. The ONLY buff it would gain is hitting all aircraft stacked on top of each other.

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netnazgul
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Post by netnazgul »

So this way AA gun would be greatly nerfed against planes (especially fast Migs), but buffed against helis. Do we want to go that path?

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AoAGeneral1
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Post by AoAGeneral1 »

netnazgul wrote: So this way AA gun would be greatly nerfed against planes (especially fast Migs), but buffed against helis. Do we want to go that path?
The shots are still instant. Meaning planes would still get hit regardless of speed.

Its essentially a damage scale. Rather then 100% of the damage is taken you get a 50-90% damage taken depending on where the shots land.

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FRenzy
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Post by FRenzy »

But it will be a buff vs groups of air units (helis and yaks alike), especially in the case of an AA "pop-up".
IMO this a buff to AA rather than a nerf. I agree with SirCake that it should be damage reduction only (initial slow RoF also maybe)

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netnazgul
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Post by netnazgul »

Because if the AA Gun misses shots
The shots are still instant. Meaning planes would still get hit regardless of speed.
given that planes are always moving, a single plane will get the less damage the faster it is, a simple formula of AoE vs movement.

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AoAGeneral1
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Post by AoAGeneral1 »

netnazgul wrote:
Because if the AA Gun misses shots
The shots are still instant. Meaning planes would still get hit regardless of speed.
given that planes are always moving, a single plane will get the less damage the faster it is, a simple formula of AoE vs movement.
Instant shot = no travel time. Minigunners/rifle infantry have travel shot times so they can miss if a unit is moving fast enough.

If the AA Gun has no projectile travel time it will always hit regardless of movement speed. So if a shot manages to land on the plane thats about 90% damage. If it lands in front of the plane, thats less damage (About 50-60%) of its damage.

With a missed shot it means not directly hitting. Every shot would be hitting regardless of units speed.

However, if you want exact, precised answers, there is no missed shots. Its always hitting. Because the AoE is always hitting. Its just not 100% damage per .8 second shots.

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netnazgul
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Post by netnazgul »

Then I got out of sync with whatever is discussed. AA gun fire delay? AA gun damage nerf? AA gun hit inaccuracy? None of the above?

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