Let's talk about RA's Navy
Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 7:52 am
Currently It's not unreasonable to say that Soviets are lacking in this department. Subs are only good at killing 1 building and reasonable at acting as vision scouts. Their torpedoes can be dodged with minimal effort. Missile subs struggle to do anything they are supposed to do. Their main weapon struggles to hit most targets unless it is point blank. Their AA is also a windfall. Both Hinds, and Longbows will kill a missile sub in 1v1 fight. Even yaks stand a decent chance of winning.
Allied naval on the other hand is decent. Gunboats lack firepower but can easily kill a sub. Their vision is decent. Destroyers are well worth their price even with the recent range reduction. Add in the fact that they are a t2 unit capable of killing everything and they become invaluable. Soviets can't deal with them until they get Migs and even then, Migs require lots of micro to not get killed. Cruisers also benefit from their 4 salvos and heavy armor. They kill buildings slowly but surely and any infantry blob will melt. Also currently unless a sub fires very close(and risk the cruiser actually killing it) a cruiser will outrun the torpedo.
Both sides tend to suffer from the fact that navies are very time consuming. You see this a bit with Yaks and especially Migs. You have to baby those units to keep them alive.
So I took a page from Omnom and Soscared and attempted to balance out the navy. Here is a list of the changes:
Subs:
armor type changed to heavy. This is to help stop Hinds from waltzing through Subs when Subs surface to attack.
TorpTube:
range: down to 8c0 from 9c0. This is to help subs not be idiots when engaging around the shore/debris. They still need to be careful though. Any smaller and Cruisers will have vision/range on subs.
Speed: up to 100 from 85. This is to help make torpedoes harder to dodge.
HorizontalRateOfTurn: up to 3 from 1. this now makes torpedoes home much more aggressively. Dodging now takes calculated effort rather than moving a cell or two.
Torpedo Damage values are now:
None: 15
Wood: 38
Light: 38
Concrete: 500
Heavy: 50
Essentially all values are halved except damage to concrete. Since Torpedoes will reliably hit it would be OP if they still had the same damage. For instance, it now takes 3 torpedoes to kill a PT boat, 4 to kill a transport, etc.
Destroyer:
Detect cloaked: down to 3c0 form 4c0. This is to make PT boats more valuable as detectors.
Cruisers: untouched as of now.
Patrol Boat:
cost: up to 700 from 500. PT boats are now more valuable in most regards. 200 isn't too drastic of a change but with the changes I felt they needed an increase, feasibly more if I believe they are too powerful.
Detect cloaked: up to 5c0 from 4c0. This is to offset the decrease in destroyer's detect range.
2inch:
damage: up from 25 to 40 . PT boats shots were pathetic. Now they do slightly more than a medium tank and slightly less than a heavy. Harvesters near the shore are now in a bit of trouble(but still easily saved).
LST(transport):
Maxweight/pipcount up to 12 from 5. This should allow strike forces to be transported across water. 4 Rockets, 8 rifles, 12 medium tanks, 12 mammoths, etc. A transport can now be scary but also risky. Loading up that much assets would be a sizable bounty if a sub happened to land 4 torpedoes or a Longbow caught wind.
Cost: 1000 from 700. For 140% percent increase in capacity a 30% increase in price is quite modest.
Missile Sub:
Cost: 2400 from 2000.
Armor: Heavy. A missile sub will now survive a Hind attack. A Longbow can almost kill one, but will most likely die leaving the sub barely in the yellow. Migs however, can kite a missile sub if it tries to attack at the wrong time.
Revealshroud: 7c0 from 6c0 this is to put it on par with the cruiser.
Cloakdelay: 120 up from 100. This is because the sub has had an overhaul in the attack nature. Attacking is now slightly more risky making hit and run tactics a little harder to pull off.
Detectcloak: now 6c0 from 4c0. This is to make soviet vs soviet naval battles more tactical. A Missile Sub can't outrun a regular sub, but it can at least try to avoid their path. Missile subs can also act as vision from regular subs to safely engage other subs without mutual destruction.
Missile Sub armament changes:
Renamed to substinger(was submissile) The Missile Sub's missiles are now very similar to how they were in the original RA and current destroyer's stingers. This means they home now! A lot of the values are the same as Destroyers with a few changes listed below.
Reloaddelay: 100 compared to a destroyer's 60.
Range:10c512. They now out range Tesla Coils by 2 cells.
Rangelimit: 12c819. It is easy to escape the missiles if the sub fires at maximum range.
Removed contrail and left smokey. Looks similar to how they did in RA originally.
Speed: 150. Slightly slower than a Destroyer (170)
Damage: 50 compared to a destroyer's 30.
SubstingerAA:
reloaddelay: 80 compared to a destroyer's 60.
speed: 245 compared to a destroyer's 255.
Damage: 45 compared to a destroyer's 30.
To surmise Missile Subs changes:
They now act like a superior destroyer. They hit a bit harder but attack a bit slower. Since they can submerge is makes them a prime harasser. But they are prone to getting swarmed. Both regular subs, PT boats, Destroyers and even Cruisers can overwhelm them. 2 Longbows are enough but Hinds need at least 3. Since it takes longer to submerge Yaks can also swarm them.
Additional tidbits on the Missile Sub. Damage output is roughly equal to that of a rocket soldier.
AA will kill any aircraft in 2 burst if both missiles hit. (this might be a cause to tone down the AA a bit)
What I think these changes do:
Soviets now have a fighting chance in naval battles. They don't just have to target a shipyard and deny allies the water. Now they can engage ships themselves. Once t3 comes into play Soviets can become deadly if uncontested. Allies now need a naval composition. Simply destroyers won't be enough. Soviet vs Soviet naval battles are now similar to land engagements. Superior vision will often win battles.
Overall all ships are more useful.
The most glaring Con to these changes centers around the Missile Subs new armament. Mobile Radar Jammers will now deflect the missiles essentially neutralizing them. It could be very hard if not impossible for a soviet player to break an allied shore blockade. My counter argument to this is that the new missiles honestly probably accidentally hit something more often then their old attack would.
All of these changes are based off my limited internal testing. I encourage everyone to help test these changes out. A wide range of player skill is needed to really conclude whether these are beneficial. If these changes are actually bad then nothing of value was lost but at least we eliminated a direction for naval balance.
I've included 17 maps that I think cover a wide range of naval possibilities:
DCF (the original version)
Alpine waters
Thai bay
Singles
Polar Disorder
Winter Storm 2
Ensio Kaivo
Doubles
Tournament Island
Island Conquest
Crossfire
Xlake
Bombardment Islands
Six Below Zero
Doughnut
Unconventional Warfare
Countercross
Duel Islands
Isle of man
Aquarius
If anyone has any map suggestions please feel free to modify them yourself or send them to me and I'll make the changes.
Other changes I've considered:
Changing all ships armor types to light. This would make Air much more effective at taking out every type of ship.
Giving soviets the PT boat as well. This gives them a t1 unit capable of hitting eco lines and also cuts down on the chaos of sub vs sub match ups. This also gives soviets a ballistic attack that is capable of dealing with Mobile Radar Jammers.
Leaving Missile subs similar to how they are now but increasing their accuracy. At just 7 cells the Missile sub will often miss a WF. If they were more accurate that would be enough to make them valuable at killing buildings.
Transports possibly bigger to be more logically sound. Perhaps even adding additional exits to allow quicker deployment.
Any of these changes could be used in conjunction with my currently proposed changes or added as alternative paths.
All changes listed out per soscared request.
Subs:
armor type changed to heavy.
TorpTube:
range: down to 8c0 from 9c0.
Speed: up to 100 from 85.
HorizontalRateOfTurn: up to 3 from 1
Torpedo Damage values are now:
None: 15
Wood: 38
Light: 38
Concrete: 500
Heavy: 50
Destroyer:
Detect cloaked: down to 3c0 form 4c0.
Cruisers: untouched as of now.
Patrol Boat:
cost: up to 700 from 500.
Detect cloaked: up to 5c0 from 4c0.
2inch:
damage: up from 25 to 40 .
LST(transport):
Maxweight/pipcount up to 12 from 5. .
Cost: 1000 from 700.
Missile Sub:
Cost: 2400 from 2000.
Armor: Heavy..
Revealshroud: 7c0 from 6c0
Cloakdelay: 120 up from 100.
Detectcloak: now 6c0 from 4c0.
Missile Sub armament changes:
Renamed to substinger(was submissile)
Reloaddelay: 100 compared to a destroyer's 60.
Range:10c512.
Rangelimit: 12c819.
Removed contrail and left smokey.
Speed: 150. Slightly slower than a Destroyer (170)
Damage: 50 compared to a destroyer's 30.
SubstingerAA:
reloaddelay: 80 compared to a destroyer's 60.
speed: 245 compared to a destroyer's 255.
Damage: 45 compared to a destroyer's 30.
Allied naval on the other hand is decent. Gunboats lack firepower but can easily kill a sub. Their vision is decent. Destroyers are well worth their price even with the recent range reduction. Add in the fact that they are a t2 unit capable of killing everything and they become invaluable. Soviets can't deal with them until they get Migs and even then, Migs require lots of micro to not get killed. Cruisers also benefit from their 4 salvos and heavy armor. They kill buildings slowly but surely and any infantry blob will melt. Also currently unless a sub fires very close(and risk the cruiser actually killing it) a cruiser will outrun the torpedo.
Both sides tend to suffer from the fact that navies are very time consuming. You see this a bit with Yaks and especially Migs. You have to baby those units to keep them alive.
So I took a page from Omnom and Soscared and attempted to balance out the navy. Here is a list of the changes:
Subs:
armor type changed to heavy. This is to help stop Hinds from waltzing through Subs when Subs surface to attack.
TorpTube:
range: down to 8c0 from 9c0. This is to help subs not be idiots when engaging around the shore/debris. They still need to be careful though. Any smaller and Cruisers will have vision/range on subs.
Speed: up to 100 from 85. This is to help make torpedoes harder to dodge.
HorizontalRateOfTurn: up to 3 from 1. this now makes torpedoes home much more aggressively. Dodging now takes calculated effort rather than moving a cell or two.
Torpedo Damage values are now:
None: 15
Wood: 38
Light: 38
Concrete: 500
Heavy: 50
Essentially all values are halved except damage to concrete. Since Torpedoes will reliably hit it would be OP if they still had the same damage. For instance, it now takes 3 torpedoes to kill a PT boat, 4 to kill a transport, etc.
Destroyer:
Detect cloaked: down to 3c0 form 4c0. This is to make PT boats more valuable as detectors.
Cruisers: untouched as of now.
Patrol Boat:
cost: up to 700 from 500. PT boats are now more valuable in most regards. 200 isn't too drastic of a change but with the changes I felt they needed an increase, feasibly more if I believe they are too powerful.
Detect cloaked: up to 5c0 from 4c0. This is to offset the decrease in destroyer's detect range.
2inch:
damage: up from 25 to 40 . PT boats shots were pathetic. Now they do slightly more than a medium tank and slightly less than a heavy. Harvesters near the shore are now in a bit of trouble(but still easily saved).
LST(transport):
Maxweight/pipcount up to 12 from 5. This should allow strike forces to be transported across water. 4 Rockets, 8 rifles, 12 medium tanks, 12 mammoths, etc. A transport can now be scary but also risky. Loading up that much assets would be a sizable bounty if a sub happened to land 4 torpedoes or a Longbow caught wind.
Cost: 1000 from 700. For 140% percent increase in capacity a 30% increase in price is quite modest.
Missile Sub:
Cost: 2400 from 2000.
Armor: Heavy. A missile sub will now survive a Hind attack. A Longbow can almost kill one, but will most likely die leaving the sub barely in the yellow. Migs however, can kite a missile sub if it tries to attack at the wrong time.
Revealshroud: 7c0 from 6c0 this is to put it on par with the cruiser.
Cloakdelay: 120 up from 100. This is because the sub has had an overhaul in the attack nature. Attacking is now slightly more risky making hit and run tactics a little harder to pull off.
Detectcloak: now 6c0 from 4c0. This is to make soviet vs soviet naval battles more tactical. A Missile Sub can't outrun a regular sub, but it can at least try to avoid their path. Missile subs can also act as vision from regular subs to safely engage other subs without mutual destruction.
Missile Sub armament changes:
Renamed to substinger(was submissile) The Missile Sub's missiles are now very similar to how they were in the original RA and current destroyer's stingers. This means they home now! A lot of the values are the same as Destroyers with a few changes listed below.
Reloaddelay: 100 compared to a destroyer's 60.
Range:10c512. They now out range Tesla Coils by 2 cells.
Rangelimit: 12c819. It is easy to escape the missiles if the sub fires at maximum range.
Removed contrail and left smokey. Looks similar to how they did in RA originally.
Speed: 150. Slightly slower than a Destroyer (170)
Damage: 50 compared to a destroyer's 30.
SubstingerAA:
reloaddelay: 80 compared to a destroyer's 60.
speed: 245 compared to a destroyer's 255.
Damage: 45 compared to a destroyer's 30.
To surmise Missile Subs changes:
They now act like a superior destroyer. They hit a bit harder but attack a bit slower. Since they can submerge is makes them a prime harasser. But they are prone to getting swarmed. Both regular subs, PT boats, Destroyers and even Cruisers can overwhelm them. 2 Longbows are enough but Hinds need at least 3. Since it takes longer to submerge Yaks can also swarm them.
Additional tidbits on the Missile Sub. Damage output is roughly equal to that of a rocket soldier.
AA will kill any aircraft in 2 burst if both missiles hit. (this might be a cause to tone down the AA a bit)
What I think these changes do:
Soviets now have a fighting chance in naval battles. They don't just have to target a shipyard and deny allies the water. Now they can engage ships themselves. Once t3 comes into play Soviets can become deadly if uncontested. Allies now need a naval composition. Simply destroyers won't be enough. Soviet vs Soviet naval battles are now similar to land engagements. Superior vision will often win battles.
Overall all ships are more useful.
The most glaring Con to these changes centers around the Missile Subs new armament. Mobile Radar Jammers will now deflect the missiles essentially neutralizing them. It could be very hard if not impossible for a soviet player to break an allied shore blockade. My counter argument to this is that the new missiles honestly probably accidentally hit something more often then their old attack would.
All of these changes are based off my limited internal testing. I encourage everyone to help test these changes out. A wide range of player skill is needed to really conclude whether these are beneficial. If these changes are actually bad then nothing of value was lost but at least we eliminated a direction for naval balance.
I've included 17 maps that I think cover a wide range of naval possibilities:
DCF (the original version)
Alpine waters
Thai bay
Singles
Polar Disorder
Winter Storm 2
Ensio Kaivo
Doubles
Tournament Island
Island Conquest
Crossfire
Xlake
Bombardment Islands
Six Below Zero
Doughnut
Unconventional Warfare
Countercross
Duel Islands
Isle of man
Aquarius
If anyone has any map suggestions please feel free to modify them yourself or send them to me and I'll make the changes.
Other changes I've considered:
Changing all ships armor types to light. This would make Air much more effective at taking out every type of ship.
Giving soviets the PT boat as well. This gives them a t1 unit capable of hitting eco lines and also cuts down on the chaos of sub vs sub match ups. This also gives soviets a ballistic attack that is capable of dealing with Mobile Radar Jammers.
Leaving Missile subs similar to how they are now but increasing their accuracy. At just 7 cells the Missile sub will often miss a WF. If they were more accurate that would be enough to make them valuable at killing buildings.
Transports possibly bigger to be more logically sound. Perhaps even adding additional exits to allow quicker deployment.
Any of these changes could be used in conjunction with my currently proposed changes or added as alternative paths.
All changes listed out per soscared request.
Subs:
armor type changed to heavy.
TorpTube:
range: down to 8c0 from 9c0.
Speed: up to 100 from 85.
HorizontalRateOfTurn: up to 3 from 1
Torpedo Damage values are now:
None: 15
Wood: 38
Light: 38
Concrete: 500
Heavy: 50
Destroyer:
Detect cloaked: down to 3c0 form 4c0.
Cruisers: untouched as of now.
Patrol Boat:
cost: up to 700 from 500.
Detect cloaked: up to 5c0 from 4c0.
2inch:
damage: up from 25 to 40 .
LST(transport):
Maxweight/pipcount up to 12 from 5. .
Cost: 1000 from 700.
Missile Sub:
Cost: 2400 from 2000.
Armor: Heavy..
Revealshroud: 7c0 from 6c0
Cloakdelay: 120 up from 100.
Detectcloak: now 6c0 from 4c0.
Missile Sub armament changes:
Renamed to substinger(was submissile)
Reloaddelay: 100 compared to a destroyer's 60.
Range:10c512.
Rangelimit: 12c819.
Removed contrail and left smokey.
Speed: 150. Slightly slower than a Destroyer (170)
Damage: 50 compared to a destroyer's 30.
SubstingerAA:
reloaddelay: 80 compared to a destroyer's 60.
speed: 245 compared to a destroyer's 255.
Damage: 45 compared to a destroyer's 30.