Removing kill bounties from RA

Discussion about the game and its default mods.
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AoAGeneral1
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Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:11 pm

Post by AoAGeneral1 »

Im going to see if I can post a few replays here. Ive just realized that my replays were on the old C: drive so ill see if I can plug that in as a secondary drive and grab it up.

One particular game I had followed the stats:

178 kills
70 deaths

5 harvesters

5400 in the bank.

Pushed back to two bases.
No oil derricks. (I skipped the two near my base for testing purposes)

My opponent had:

70 kills
178 deaths

7 harvesters

6400 in the bank.

Just aquired third base.
Had two oil derricks.

If the bounty system counted I would have made the same amount as he did. Just off less bases, no oil derricks, and less harvesters.

Again will see if I can grab the files later on in the week.

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Materianer
Posts: 199
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Post by Materianer »

Hi,
i just wanted to post my results from 10 games with killbounties and without here.
please notice that i played these matches in last release and they are only a few ones from much more i did without bounties.
I have established the following criterias for the matches:
2on2
Playtime 10 - 30 min
No oilderrickwas shot down early
the players gathered the ore on theyr side
Map Tournament Island


I played more than 30 games on the no killbounties map and normal version to get a big selection wich i can choose from.
So here are my results:

Code: Select all

no Killbounties				with Killbounties

earned/min					earned/min		
20:03:00						17:55:00	
6032,53		s				6969,02		s
6273,08		a				5850,52		s
5797,43		a				5666,33		a
5514,57		s				4776,57		s

17:40:00						22:41:00
5774,98		s				6787,03		s
4808,88		s				5059,86		a
7131,12		a				6365,42		a
5776,34		s				5744,82		a


22:44:00						21:48:00
6577,96		a				5277,93		s
4336,69		s				4154,37		a
3616,12		s				6119,03		a
3990,01		a				6458,72		a

22:02:00						12:57:00	
6614,28		a				6897,43		a
6733,90		a				5431,28		a
3912,13		s				3083,24		s
5741,84		a				6456,01		a


20:55:00						15:42:00	
6783,16		s				7137,17		s
5669,31		s				6857,85		s
4092,76		s				5804,25		a
5488,72		s				4095,17		a


16:01:00						29:11:00	
5745,60		a				5670,01		a
2884,79		a				4901,16		a
5931,31		a				6112,33		s
7695,52		s				6603,22		a


17:05:00						19:32:00	
6248,72		s				5946,29		s
5422,92		s				5747,29		s
5218,79		a				5005,47		s
5199,98		a				6150,97		a

21:55:00						14:14:00	
5590,36		s				6985,02		a
3720,00		a				5018,28		s
6812,13		a				3377,23		s
5562,25		a				4905,22		a


18:26:00						18:08:00	
6319,65		a				6659,12		a
5941,15		a				5000,66		s
5407,76		s				4441,05		s
5618,46		s				3827,69		a


15:17:00						28:27:00	
6364,87		s				6694,39		a
8001,57		s				5842,92		s
3065,57		s				5449,72		a
5803,43		a				4330,09		s

Endresults
								
no Killbounties								with Killbounties
								
Materia		6205,211	earned/min					6501,741	earned/min
								
								
Allplayers	5580,516	earned/min					5591,50375 earned/min

On top is the gametime
below is always my result and the other players under me.
s and a stands for soviet and allies.
For allplayers it seems to be a very slight diffrence, that maybe because of the diffrent buildorders, oretruck amount and so on.
For me i can say i always made the same buildorder at start so this is maybe a bit more meaningful.
( ore ref, war fac light vehicle 3 oretrux, ref ) my standard buildorder please dont copy ;D
What i can say is that you can hardly feel the diffrence while playing.
Nukes getting nerfed a bit, i've seen one that made 3k killbounties but that was a very big massacre.
Normally they make maybe between 500$ and 2000$ and the big ones are often just the end of the game then of course.
Another thing is that i think that killbounties makes games a bit more laggy with all these numbers that will be shown, especially in big games with many units.

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avalach21
Posts: 214
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2015 8:01 pm

Post by avalach21 »

Materianer wrote: Hi,
i just wanted to post my results from 10 games with killbounties and without here.
please notice that i played these matches in last release and they are only a few ones from much more i did without bounties.
I have established the following criterias for the matches:
2on2
Playtime 10 - 30 min
No oilderrickwas shot down early
the players gathered the ore on theyr side
Map Tournament Island


I played more than 30 games on the no killbounties map and normal version to get a big selection wich i can choose from.
So here are my results:

Code: Select all

no Killbounties				with Killbounties

earned/min					earned/min		
20:03:00						17:55:00	
6032,53		s				6969,02		s
6273,08		a				5850,52		s
5797,43		a				5666,33		a
5514,57		s				4776,57		s

17:40:00						22:41:00
5774,98		s				6787,03		s
4808,88		s				5059,86		a
7131,12		a				6365,42		a
5776,34		s				5744,82		a


22:44:00						21:48:00
6577,96		a				5277,93		s
4336,69		s				4154,37		a
3616,12		s				6119,03		a
3990,01		a				6458,72		a

22:02:00						12:57:00	
6614,28		a				6897,43		a
6733,90		a				5431,28		a
3912,13		s				3083,24		s
5741,84		a				6456,01		a


20:55:00						15:42:00	
6783,16		s				7137,17		s
5669,31		s				6857,85		s
4092,76		s				5804,25		a
5488,72		s				4095,17		a


16:01:00						29:11:00	
5745,60		a				5670,01		a
2884,79		a				4901,16		a
5931,31		a				6112,33		s
7695,52		s				6603,22		a


17:05:00						19:32:00	
6248,72		s				5946,29		s
5422,92		s				5747,29		s
5218,79		a				5005,47		s
5199,98		a				6150,97		a

21:55:00						14:14:00	
5590,36		s				6985,02		a
3720,00		a				5018,28		s
6812,13		a				3377,23		s
5562,25		a				4905,22		a


18:26:00						18:08:00	
6319,65		a				6659,12		a
5941,15		a				5000,66		s
5407,76		s				4441,05		s
5618,46		s				3827,69		a


15:17:00						28:27:00	
6364,87		s				6694,39		a
8001,57		s				5842,92		s
3065,57		s				5449,72		a
5803,43		a				4330,09		s

Endresults
								
no Killbounties								with Killbounties
								
Materia		6205,211	earned/min					6501,741	earned/min
								
								
Allplayers	5580,516	earned/min					5591,50375 earned/min

On top is the gametime
below is always my result and the other players under me.
s and a stands for soviet and allies.
For allplayers it seems to be a very slight diffrence, that maybe because of the diffrent buildorders, oretruck amount and so on.
For me i can say i always made the same buildorder at start so this is maybe a bit more meaningful.
( ore ref, war fac light vehicle 3 oretrux, ref ) my standard buildorder please dont copy ;D
What i can say is that you can hardly feel the diffrence while playing.
Nukes getting nerfed a bit, i've seen one that made 3k killbounties but that was a very big massacre.
Normally they make maybe between 500$ and 2000$ and the big ones are often just the end of the game then of course.
Another thing is that i think that killbounties makes games a bit more laggy with all these numbers that will be shown, especially in big games with many units.
I feel like Nukes are powerful enough as is. Demo trucks are also super annoying and powerful. The fact they cost so much balances them but then they can get all the money back in bounty so they are overpowered IMO

Bounties just seem like an unrealistic, illogical, unnecessary addition to the game that wasn't in any of the original C&Cs so I'm kind of perplexed as to why they exist at all. If anything they should be a toggleable option in the game lobby to enable if you want. I'm glad this discussion is being brought back and thanks for doing all this testing and data accumulation.

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Sleipnir
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Post by Sleipnir »

The next release will include several changes to how the lobby options work, and a bounty checkbox is planned as part of that. It will default to being enabled.

The bounties have remained so far because of vocal community support. I expect that the consensus opinion on this and other RA oddities may change now that the main voices arguing for "the old OpenRA RA gameplay" have decided to cut ties and fork their own mod. If the majority opinions do change then we can adjust the main RA mod to match.

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avalach21
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Post by avalach21 »

Sleipnir wrote: The next release will include several changes to how the lobby options work, and a bounty checkbox is planned as part of that. It will default to being enabled.
IMO this is great news. It's good to have options and it could be fun to have it on in certain situations (FFA games for example) but i personally would prefer the default option to be off.
Sleipnir wrote: The bounties have remained so far because of vocal community support. I expect that the consensus opinion on this and other RA oddities may change now that the main voices arguing for "the old OpenRA RA gameplay" have decided to cut ties and fork their own mod. If the majority opinions do change then we can adjust the main RA mod to match.
I don't want to stray too far off topic but I'm curious if you could explain or summarize who the main voices are/were and what this forked mod is? Sorry I am not fully in tune with OpenRA politics but am curious. Also, what are the other RA oddities you mention?

OMnom
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Post by OMnom »

avalach21 wrote: I feel like Nukes are powerful enough as is. Demo trucks are also super annoying and powerful. The fact they cost so much balances them but then they can get all the money back in bounty so they are overpowered IMO
Can someone double check if demo trucks give you bounties? I tried this recently and it doesn't seem like demos give you any bounties because the truck dies before it actually kills anything. This seems to also happen to V2s; if the V2 launches a missile, but it dies before the missile actually kills its intended target, you will not receive any bounties.

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anjew
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Post by anjew »

Sleipnir wrote: who the main voices are/were and what this forked mod is?
I know SoScared is the primary contributor, I'm not sure how many others are actively involved.
Here is the github: https://github.com/SoScared/Red-Alert-Unplugged
Here is the first twitch video in series regarding it: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/203481394

The goals outlined are "promoting game balance and features beneficial primarily to itself as opposed to a modder friendly developer platform."
It also it has the intention of implementing an enhanced observer/replay interface, something I'm following very closely.
Image

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SoScared
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Post by SoScared »

I'm the singular contributor to the Unplugged project and so far it's merely a personal project for me to have something to do.

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FiveAces
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Post by FiveAces »

OMnom wrote:
avalach21 wrote: I feel like Nukes are powerful enough as is. Demo trucks are also super annoying and powerful. The fact they cost so much balances them but then they can get all the money back in bounty so they are overpowered IMO
Can someone double check if demo trucks give you bounties? I tried this recently and it doesn't seem like demos give you any bounties because the truck dies before it actually kills anything. This seems to also happen to V2s; if the V2 launches a missile, but it dies before the missile actually kills its intended target, you will not receive any bounties.
This is actually true for any unit in the game: If it dies before its weapon gets a kill, the bounty is lost to the void.
This does mostly concern arties/V2s, since their projectile speed is comparatively low.

The demo truck is an interesting vehicle in that regard: Whoever detonates it gets assigned "ownership" of the blast.
Hence why if you manually detonate it you'll reap the kill bounties - but only in the primary blast radius (something like ~8 cells, give or take).
If your opponent destroys the truck, he technically kills his own units with friendly fire, thus denying the bounties.

In the same vein, you can get filthy rich from sniping an enemy demo truck when it's close to his army. 8)

OMnom
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Post by OMnom »

FiveAces wrote:
OMnom wrote:
avalach21 wrote: I feel like Nukes are powerful enough as is. Demo trucks are also super annoying and powerful. The fact they cost so much balances them but then they can get all the money back in bounty so they are overpowered IMO
Can someone double check if demo trucks give you bounties? I tried this recently and it doesn't seem like demos give you any bounties because the truck dies before it actually kills anything. This seems to also happen to V2s; if the V2 launches a missile, but it dies before the missile actually kills its intended target, you will not receive any bounties.
The demo truck is an interesting vehicle in that regard: Whoever detonates it gets assigned "ownership" of the blast.
Hence why if you manually detonate it you'll reap the kill bounties - but only in the primary blast radius (something like ~8 cells, give or take).
...i literally just blew up an entire army manually, and I got no bounties.

edit: i finally got this to work, but it's only works 4c0 radius (basically demo truck vision range, which is about the same range as a rifleman)...The only way to consistently activate the bounties is if you manually detonate the Demo Truck 2-3 cells away from the intended target. So If you wanted to get a significant chunk of bounties from an infantry blob, you'd have to drive it up to an infantry blob that is on Hold Fire (idk when this would even happen) or a blob that was accidentally given a pure move command, and then manually detonate before the truck dies. Realstically speaking, this will never happen. Even if it does, you'll only get bounties at 4c0 range and under.
Last edited by OMnom on Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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FiveAces
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Post by FiveAces »

OMnom wrote:
FiveAces wrote:
OMnom wrote:
avalach21 wrote: I feel like Nukes are powerful enough as is. Demo trucks are also super annoying and powerful. The fact they cost so much balances them but then they can get all the money back in bounty so they are overpowered IMO
Can someone double check if demo trucks give you bounties? I tried this recently and it doesn't seem like demos give you any bounties because the truck dies before it actually kills anything. This seems to also happen to V2s; if the V2 launches a missile, but it dies before the missile actually kills its intended target, you will not receive any bounties.
The demo truck is an interesting vehicle in that regard: Whoever detonates it gets assigned "ownership" of the blast.
Hence why if you manually detonate it you'll reap the kill bounties - but only in the primary blast radius (something like ~8 cells, give or take).
...i literally just blew up an entire army manually, and I got no bounties.

edit: i finally got this to work, but it's only works 4c0 radius (primary blast radius, you can see the scorch marks), which is about the same range as a rifleman....sometimes, I killed units in this range and they still didn't give me any bounties. The demo truck will rarely kill anything manually at or below this range...only thing I can think of is if someone is dumb enough to fly their entire air force over a demo truck. In addition, according to the combat geometry and YAML code, the Demo Truck explosion comprises of multiple explosions, meaning that anything with over 400hp is not likely to give you any bounties. The bounties you get from killing an infantry blob is probably the same as 1 or 2 arty hits on a infantry blob...maybe $500 at the most, and that's if you're extremely lucky.
Yea, like I said, only the primary explosion gives bounties. It does overlap with the 2nd/3rd/4th blast though, so getting bounties is kind of a diceroll.

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MustaphaTR
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Post by MustaphaTR »

FiveAces wrote:
OMnom wrote:
FiveAces wrote:
OMnom wrote:
avalach21 wrote: I feel like Nukes are powerful enough as is. Demo trucks are also super annoying and powerful. The fact they cost so much balances them but then they can get all the money back in bounty so they are overpowered IMO
Can someone double check if demo trucks give you bounties? I tried this recently and it doesn't seem like demos give you any bounties because the truck dies before it actually kills anything. This seems to also happen to V2s; if the V2 launches a missile, but it dies before the missile actually kills its intended target, you will not receive any bounties.
The demo truck is an interesting vehicle in that regard: Whoever detonates it gets assigned "ownership" of the blast.
Hence why if you manually detonate it you'll reap the kill bounties - but only in the primary blast radius (something like ~8 cells, give or take).
...i literally just blew up an entire army manually, and I got no bounties.

edit: i finally got this to work, but it's only works 4c0 radius (primary blast radius, you can see the scorch marks), which is about the same range as a rifleman....sometimes, I killed units in this range and they still didn't give me any bounties. The demo truck will rarely kill anything manually at or below this range...only thing I can think of is if someone is dumb enough to fly their entire air force over a demo truck. In addition, according to the combat geometry and YAML code, the Demo Truck explosion comprises of multiple explosions, meaning that anything with over 400hp is not likely to give you any bounties. The bounties you get from killing an infantry blob is probably the same as 1 or 2 arty hits on a infantry blob...maybe $500 at the most, and that's if you're extremely lucky.
Yea, like I said, only the primary explosion gives bounties. It does overlap with the 2nd/3rd/4th blast though, so getting bounties is kind of a diceroll.
That sounds like a bug to me tbh. Which i can guess the reason, after the first blast is done, nuke truck is dead. And looks like dead actors can't get bounty, i tested with artillery too looks like that's the case.

lucassss
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Post by lucassss »

This behavior is true not only for bounties but also for score. It happened to me when a grenadier of mine destroyed a building but got killed before the grenade hit.

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FiveAces
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Post by FiveAces »

lucassss wrote: This behavior is true not only for bounties but also for score. It happened to me when a grenadier of mine destroyed a building but got killed before the grenade hit.
Yep, as far as I'm aware kill bounties are the single contributing factor to your score, at a conversion ratio of 10:1 :)

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Sleipnir
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Post by Sleipnir »

There are actually quite a few things that contribute towards score, such as capturing or infiltrating buildings, repairing things, and using supply trucks.

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