Snipers, Spies and the French
Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:00 pm
Over the past few months I have been testing modified maps in which the England’s $250 British Spy is replaced by a support power ‘Sniper Drop’ which paradrops two snipers onto the map. The maps also have the Phase Transport and Mobile Gap Generator swapped between England and France. These changes attempt to address the following three issues:
1. No spy should cost $250; or as AMHOL would put it, Spies are OP!
Now this change probably doesn’t go as far as AMHOL would like in regards to the spy; there’s just not a consensus on if or how the spy is broken. But what the players I’ve talked to can agree on is that $250 for a spy is a bit much.
2. Balance across the Allied factions.
I can’t speak for everyone, but for me drawing France as Random is always a bit of a let down. Not because I think I’ll be at a disadvantage, (Allies are great of course), but because I know if we get to the late game I’ll have fewer toys to play with than England or Germany.
Now because of the rework to the Gap and Mobile Gap Generators this may change. I have my doubts as the MGG will still be a giant “Scout and/or lob artillery here†sign, but I may be wrong. Assuming the MGG doesn’t become a must-have item for the late game, I believe France would be better served with the Phase Transport.
By making this change, each Allied faction with have one offensive special unit; Snipers for Britain, Phase Transports for France, and Chrono Tanks for Germany.
3. What to do with snipers?
The sniper was removed in 2015 from gameplay but still exists in the OpenRA mod. Like ants and zombies it can be accessed through the debug menu. Unlike ants and zombies, snipers wouldn’t look completely ridiculous in the official release.
I assume the chief argument against the adding sniper would be that it wasn’t in the original Red Alert, which I really can’t argue against. What I can say in defense of the sniper is that it has already been in OpenRA, and can be viewed as an element like the flak truck. Like the flak truck, the sniper is also a unit from Red Alert 2.
For me, my proposed changes are less about the sniper, and more about what adding the sniper accomplishes in removing the British Spy and balancing the Allied special units.
The sniper should either be brought out of purgatory or be eternally damned. This change opts for the former.
Notes:
- I have two concerns with the sniper. a) Lack of Soviet stealth detection; I doubt Fido is going to win very many fights vs a sniper. b) The ability for Snipers to fire into fog of war with GPS, making them a poor man’s artillery. (GPS is a subject for later. If no one else brings up the need for a nerf I’ll make a thread eventually. Personally I’m for removing the ’unit vision’ as opposed to commander vision so that artillery and Tanya can’t shoot into the fog of war. I’d also look at removing infantry from GPS detection. I digress; way off topic here.)
That said, I don’t think snipers are overpowered, especially dropped only two at a time every five/six minutes.
- I have the Sniper Drop set at five minutes. I’m thinking it’ll be around six if I ever take this to a pr.
- The highest amount of sniper drops I have seen in a competitive game so far is four, yielding eight snipers in a 40 minute game.
- I have had games as both factions where I was able to eliminate the snipers before they could rack up a single kill.
- With their 10 cell range Snipers behave like artillery in an a-move fight. This leaves them vulnerable to air attack in the back lines.
- Keep in mind snipers can be adjusted. Rate of fire, vision, range, ect.; if anything needs to be addressed it can be.
- I assume the faction ‘themes’ would need to be altered. I’d change Britain from Espionage to Concealment. France should be fine staying with Deception; a stealth vehicle is pretty deceiving right?
- The Sniper Drop isn’t my idea. Five Aces uploaded a test map with the drop and several more ambitious changes. http://resource.openra.net/maps/17170/
Final Thoughts:
One of the things I was aiming for was a small change I could test slowly while still enjoying normal games. I’ve played every game as ‘any’ despite the change being untestable if England or France weren’t in the match. If snipers came into play or France got to use a phase transport, then great; if not, no big deal. I’m still enjoying normal games.
The point I’m trying to make is, this change will not be that impactful or intrusive to the state of the game.
There’s one criticism I expect to receive that I would like to go ahead and address, and it goes something like this: ‘Hey Smitty! Allies vs. Soviets are where the balance issues are! Why are you trying to fix Allies vs Allies?’
That is correct, Allied vs Soviet balance is a more pressing matter than what I’m trying to do. But if you look at the last two batches of balance changes, each one came with an important Allied nerf; artillery range then pillbox value. I expect that trend to continue in the right direction regardless of what I do.
What I’m trying to do here is add more flavor to the game. Giving France something they would actually use and making sure each faction has an offensive unit will increase the likelihood of games with different units adding their own flair to the battle. A game that Five Aces casted recently saw me using phase transports as France, which just wouldn’t have happened without the edit.
Maps:
1v1
http://resource.openra.net/maps/19239/
http://resource.openra.net/maps/19301/
http://resource.openra.net/maps/19302/
http://resource.openra.net/maps/19303/
http://resource.openra.net/maps/19304/
http://resource.openra.net/maps/19462/
http://resource.openra.net/maps/19466/
Team
http://resource.openra.net/maps/19891/
http://resource.openra.net/maps/19890/
http://resource.openra.net/maps/19889/
http://resource.openra.net/maps/19888/
I’ll get updated ones out after the release.
Feedback:
I’m particularly interested in how team players think the Sniper Drop would affect their games. If you agree, object, have a counter-proposal let me know. I’m not going to use a poll at the moment because I’m more interested in dialog at this stage.
1. No spy should cost $250; or as AMHOL would put it, Spies are OP!
Now this change probably doesn’t go as far as AMHOL would like in regards to the spy; there’s just not a consensus on if or how the spy is broken. But what the players I’ve talked to can agree on is that $250 for a spy is a bit much.
2. Balance across the Allied factions.
I can’t speak for everyone, but for me drawing France as Random is always a bit of a let down. Not because I think I’ll be at a disadvantage, (Allies are great of course), but because I know if we get to the late game I’ll have fewer toys to play with than England or Germany.
Now because of the rework to the Gap and Mobile Gap Generators this may change. I have my doubts as the MGG will still be a giant “Scout and/or lob artillery here†sign, but I may be wrong. Assuming the MGG doesn’t become a must-have item for the late game, I believe France would be better served with the Phase Transport.
By making this change, each Allied faction with have one offensive special unit; Snipers for Britain, Phase Transports for France, and Chrono Tanks for Germany.
3. What to do with snipers?
The sniper was removed in 2015 from gameplay but still exists in the OpenRA mod. Like ants and zombies it can be accessed through the debug menu. Unlike ants and zombies, snipers wouldn’t look completely ridiculous in the official release.
I assume the chief argument against the adding sniper would be that it wasn’t in the original Red Alert, which I really can’t argue against. What I can say in defense of the sniper is that it has already been in OpenRA, and can be viewed as an element like the flak truck. Like the flak truck, the sniper is also a unit from Red Alert 2.
For me, my proposed changes are less about the sniper, and more about what adding the sniper accomplishes in removing the British Spy and balancing the Allied special units.
The sniper should either be brought out of purgatory or be eternally damned. This change opts for the former.
Notes:
- I have two concerns with the sniper. a) Lack of Soviet stealth detection; I doubt Fido is going to win very many fights vs a sniper. b) The ability for Snipers to fire into fog of war with GPS, making them a poor man’s artillery. (GPS is a subject for later. If no one else brings up the need for a nerf I’ll make a thread eventually. Personally I’m for removing the ’unit vision’ as opposed to commander vision so that artillery and Tanya can’t shoot into the fog of war. I’d also look at removing infantry from GPS detection. I digress; way off topic here.)
That said, I don’t think snipers are overpowered, especially dropped only two at a time every five/six minutes.
- I have the Sniper Drop set at five minutes. I’m thinking it’ll be around six if I ever take this to a pr.
- The highest amount of sniper drops I have seen in a competitive game so far is four, yielding eight snipers in a 40 minute game.
- I have had games as both factions where I was able to eliminate the snipers before they could rack up a single kill.
- With their 10 cell range Snipers behave like artillery in an a-move fight. This leaves them vulnerable to air attack in the back lines.
- Keep in mind snipers can be adjusted. Rate of fire, vision, range, ect.; if anything needs to be addressed it can be.
- I assume the faction ‘themes’ would need to be altered. I’d change Britain from Espionage to Concealment. France should be fine staying with Deception; a stealth vehicle is pretty deceiving right?
- The Sniper Drop isn’t my idea. Five Aces uploaded a test map with the drop and several more ambitious changes. http://resource.openra.net/maps/17170/
Final Thoughts:
One of the things I was aiming for was a small change I could test slowly while still enjoying normal games. I’ve played every game as ‘any’ despite the change being untestable if England or France weren’t in the match. If snipers came into play or France got to use a phase transport, then great; if not, no big deal. I’m still enjoying normal games.
The point I’m trying to make is, this change will not be that impactful or intrusive to the state of the game.
There’s one criticism I expect to receive that I would like to go ahead and address, and it goes something like this: ‘Hey Smitty! Allies vs. Soviets are where the balance issues are! Why are you trying to fix Allies vs Allies?’
That is correct, Allied vs Soviet balance is a more pressing matter than what I’m trying to do. But if you look at the last two batches of balance changes, each one came with an important Allied nerf; artillery range then pillbox value. I expect that trend to continue in the right direction regardless of what I do.
What I’m trying to do here is add more flavor to the game. Giving France something they would actually use and making sure each faction has an offensive unit will increase the likelihood of games with different units adding their own flair to the battle. A game that Five Aces casted recently saw me using phase transports as France, which just wouldn’t have happened without the edit.
Maps:
1v1
http://resource.openra.net/maps/19239/
http://resource.openra.net/maps/19301/
http://resource.openra.net/maps/19302/
http://resource.openra.net/maps/19303/
http://resource.openra.net/maps/19304/
http://resource.openra.net/maps/19462/
http://resource.openra.net/maps/19466/
Team
http://resource.openra.net/maps/19891/
http://resource.openra.net/maps/19890/
http://resource.openra.net/maps/19889/
http://resource.openra.net/maps/19888/
I’ll get updated ones out after the release.
Feedback:
I’m particularly interested in how team players think the Sniper Drop would affect their games. If you agree, object, have a counter-proposal let me know. I’m not going to use a poll at the moment because I’m more interested in dialog at this stage.