Being able to build a long wall in RA is nice, so you don't have to build it piece by piece, manually ...
However, sometimes it seems to me to be an easy trick. You can raise up a wall in second, to block an entire army, to basepush, etc ...
So, here's an idea : we could still build the wall with only specifying its start and its end. But the wall would be slowly built, piece by piece, automatically, at a specified rate.
I saw that it's how it works in Company of Heroes.
Thoughts ?
Idea to modify sandbags / walls building
Interesting remark !
However, are you sure such a tactic (MCV rush at start) is counterable with walls ?
Maybe on team maps like Vegetation, with perfect team coordination, and lateral ally MCVs moving forth toward the main entries. But doesn't happen often.
And quickly-built walls help a lot in this kinds of rushes : the rusher can shoot the enemy MCV with rockets over the wall, while pillboxes can't counter it, and no arties at this stage.
However, are you sure such a tactic (MCV rush at start) is counterable with walls ?
Maybe on team maps like Vegetation, with perfect team coordination, and lateral ally MCVs moving forth toward the main entries. But doesn't happen often.
And quickly-built walls help a lot in this kinds of rushes : the rusher can shoot the enemy MCV with rockets over the wall, while pillboxes can't counter it, and no arties at this stage.
Would it be perhaps an idea to disallow Light Tanks to crush sandbags too?
Would give them some early game use until heavy/med tanks were buildable ?
Seen this in a recent replay on YouTube(I think FiveAces or SoScared) where a player built a sandbag wall around their entire base at the start of the game. Which would have actually paid off quite nicely if it were not for light tanks, which are available at the same stage as other low tech vehicles.
It seems this one small factor, currently makes sandbags pretty redundant.
Would give them some early game use until heavy/med tanks were buildable ?
Seen this in a recent replay on YouTube(I think FiveAces or SoScared) where a player built a sandbag wall around their entire base at the start of the game. Which would have actually paid off quite nicely if it were not for light tanks, which are available at the same stage as other low tech vehicles.
It seems this one small factor, currently makes sandbags pretty redundant.
The un-offical addon for Tiberian Sun
I think walls often work in that situation. It's often crucial to block enemy turrets. The defending side can then rush artie or v2 and have a good chance of killing the enemy mcv, or at least making it move which normally results in a major set back for them as you can kill their other facilities. A good player can defend a weaker player in this way, even if they can't win a turret war with the other side.FRenzy wrote: ↑Interesting remark !
However, are you sure such a tactic (MCV rush at start) is counterable with walls ?
Maybe on team maps like Vegetation, with perfect team coordination, and lateral ally MCVs moving forth toward the main entries. But doesn't happen often.
And quickly-built walls help a lot in this kinds of rushes : the rusher can shoot the enemy MCV with rockets over the wall, while pillboxes can't counter it, and no arties at this stage.
I think if sandbags were better at defending flame and couldn't be crushed by an apc then they would have more use. But yeah making them non crushable by small tanks could also help.SMIFFGIG wrote: ↑Would it be perhaps an idea to disallow Light Tanks to crush sandbags too?
Would give them some early game use until heavy/med tanks were buildable ?
Seen this in a recent replay on YouTube(I think FiveAces or SoScared) where a player built a sandbag wall around their entire base at the start of the game. Which would have actually paid off quite nicely if it were not for light tanks, which are available at the same stage as other low tech vehicles.
It seems this one small factor, currently makes sandbags pretty redundant.
Yes walls are broke as they are now. They can be used to defend against a base push but both allied defensive structures and walls need nerfs though. It's way too easy to block paths completely and some maps really suffer from this. So nerfing walls and making defensive structures more expensive would be good.
Afaik walls aren't nerfed in the next release. Rocket soldiers got a 250% damage buff vs walls but it was mostly an adjustment issue since they did little to no damage before.
Walls are OP. Funny enough they've been OP for the longest time but havent been exploited properly until the last weeks and months. Wall nerf has been avoided mostly because it was used rarely thus a nerf really made no sense. Now that we see it frequently it's easier to make the case. IMO walls are boring, they punish and shut down mobility and great plays. They do have some interesting uses but as far as I'm concerned they belong in missions as props.
Nerfing production time, HP, whatever it all sounds good to me.
Walls are OP. Funny enough they've been OP for the longest time but havent been exploited properly until the last weeks and months. Wall nerf has been avoided mostly because it was used rarely thus a nerf really made no sense. Now that we see it frequently it's easier to make the case. IMO walls are boring, they punish and shut down mobility and great plays. They do have some interesting uses but as far as I'm concerned they belong in missions as props.
Nerfing production time, HP, whatever it all sounds good to me.
I disagree with a complete overhaul. There are a couple of things I think walls have added to the current state of play:
- Omnom's use of walls to counter enemy static.
- Frenzy used a wall to fence in my war factory. (Not even mad bro, that was funny.)
The problems as I see it are the ability to wall of large sections of map, and the ability to wall off a choke.
For the first problem, I think reducing the connecting wall construction range by 1 or 2 cells would go a long way to limiting the amount of walled off map. If a player is dead set on walling everywhere, at the very least it will take more time and money to do. (My philosophy is, if you're building walls, that's time not spent on building pillboxes.)
For walling off chokes, I mainly want to focus on punishing players who will wall off a choke and leave it undefended, relying on the sound of the wall being attacked to give them time to set up a defense. For this I'm going to again pitch my engineer wall C4ing idea. If a wall disappears instantly, and an army immediately floods through, that leaves less time for the waller to respond.
Finally I would like to stress that these problems can be fixed through map design. It's okay to have maps that are either small or have multiple chokepoints, but chokes can be expanded, debris can be placed, trees can be moved, etc... Anything to alleviate static play.
These are proposed changes are small, but that's because I believe the problem with walling is small. (Or at least not nearly as bad as pillbox spam.) I don't currently see many players using walls as a central part of their game plan, (Just one actually), so to me an overhaul would just be nerfing Omnom for the sake of nerfing Omnom.
- Omnom's use of walls to counter enemy static.
- Frenzy used a wall to fence in my war factory. (Not even mad bro, that was funny.)
The problems as I see it are the ability to wall of large sections of map, and the ability to wall off a choke.
For the first problem, I think reducing the connecting wall construction range by 1 or 2 cells would go a long way to limiting the amount of walled off map. If a player is dead set on walling everywhere, at the very least it will take more time and money to do. (My philosophy is, if you're building walls, that's time not spent on building pillboxes.)
For walling off chokes, I mainly want to focus on punishing players who will wall off a choke and leave it undefended, relying on the sound of the wall being attacked to give them time to set up a defense. For this I'm going to again pitch my engineer wall C4ing idea. If a wall disappears instantly, and an army immediately floods through, that leaves less time for the waller to respond.
Finally I would like to stress that these problems can be fixed through map design. It's okay to have maps that are either small or have multiple chokepoints, but chokes can be expanded, debris can be placed, trees can be moved, etc... Anything to alleviate static play.
These are proposed changes are small, but that's because I believe the problem with walling is small. (Or at least not nearly as bad as pillbox spam.) I don't currently see many players using walls as a central part of their game plan, (Just one actually), so to me an overhaul would just be nerfing Omnom for the sake of nerfing Omnom.
@zinc : Oh ok I didn't understand it that way. Then yes I agree walls can be helpful in that case.
@SMIFFGIG : I'm not quite sure about making sandbags non-crushable : it still is mainly anti-infantry and light vehicles. Otherwise they'd become OP early game, you could wall off your entire base, way before the enemy gets a service depot. If you want to protect yourself 100% from armored vehicles, then use walls. But it's expensive, so better use units, static def, ...
@christian, OMnom, SoScared : yes, they probably need some nerfing.
@Smitty : good points there. Just not to be misunderstood : the different strategies involving walls are all valid IMO, OMnom's one is very brilliant !
The only problem I have with it, is that it seems too strong in the current meta (cheap, quickly buildable, and hardly destroyable). And you can easily camp behind the walls, and attack / erase an enemy base with long range weapons, with low losses on your side, as walls are too long to be taken down. The only viable counter I see is to use arty, but I don't feel good about a strategy having only one counter. Nerfing down the walls a bit could add more possibilities for a counter, yet still leaving room for such strategies.
The C4 engy idea is cool ! You would see it as a silent C4ing ? That would be interesting.
But that can't be a counter to a basepush walling, the engy would die so quickly.
My initial idea (automatic, slow construction) will be probably hard to code. So maybe a little nerf (among these parameters : HP, cost, construction time, range, length, ...) could balance the whole thing
@SMIFFGIG : I'm not quite sure about making sandbags non-crushable : it still is mainly anti-infantry and light vehicles. Otherwise they'd become OP early game, you could wall off your entire base, way before the enemy gets a service depot. If you want to protect yourself 100% from armored vehicles, then use walls. But it's expensive, so better use units, static def, ...
@christian, OMnom, SoScared : yes, they probably need some nerfing.
@Smitty : good points there. Just not to be misunderstood : the different strategies involving walls are all valid IMO, OMnom's one is very brilliant !
The only problem I have with it, is that it seems too strong in the current meta (cheap, quickly buildable, and hardly destroyable). And you can easily camp behind the walls, and attack / erase an enemy base with long range weapons, with low losses on your side, as walls are too long to be taken down. The only viable counter I see is to use arty, but I don't feel good about a strategy having only one counter. Nerfing down the walls a bit could add more possibilities for a counter, yet still leaving room for such strategies.
The C4 engy idea is cool ! You would see it as a silent C4ing ? That would be interesting.
But that can't be a counter to a basepush walling, the engy would die so quickly.
My initial idea (automatic, slow construction) will be probably hard to code. So maybe a little nerf (among these parameters : HP, cost, construction time, range, length, ...) could balance the whole thing
@SMIFFGIG What I mean by "light" is a wheeled, non-tracked vehicle, therefore not considered as tanks. Light tank is considered as a tank in the engine, same for APC. They both have heavy armor and tracks, it makes sense physically that they can crush sandbags. Although I understand your point, but once again sandbags would become uncounterable before opponent gets service depot.
(By the way : arties can crush sandbags, while V2s can't ... ! Maybe this could cause imbalance ? )
(By the way : arties can crush sandbags, while V2s can't ... ! Maybe this could cause imbalance ? )