OpenRA

X-posting main post of the pull request: https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/pull/11927



Light Tank

• Damage vs Heavy Armor: +12.5%

• Damage vs Light Armor +20%

• Visual tweak: Rate of fire halved, damage doubled (edit: alternatively ca. 70%).

Taking advantage from the past months' map playtesting I'd like to propose these Light Tank changes for the next playtest.

Following the previous release buff of +1 vision range the Allies has gotten a somewhat useful early-game frontliner providing line-of-sight and a bit of damage soak for the infantry. The Light Tank still has a short expiration date due to its low health and abysmal damage output, as it gets dwarfed as soon as players build up their rocket squads while teching up to either Service Depot or Radar Dome.

The playtest change in damage output was specifically aimed towards allowing Light Tanks to do better job at fighting and zoning out light vehicles and flanking undefended artillery/V2's as well as undeployed MCV's (as with the Mobile Flak). Experience demonstrated that not only was this accomplished to a certain degree but also avoided certain pitfalls such as swarm killing Ore Harvesters due to +12.5% Heavy Armor damage. The Light Tank is still phased out during games but a bit slower and does widens Allies' tech choice a bit by e.g. using Light Tanks as support while teching up to Radar Dome before the Service Depot.

The rate of fire change is something I've always loved to see changed regardless, making the tank feel less like a pea shooter. I understand originally this was due to better target faster units such as Rangers, Mobile Flaks and APCs but the gain is overall negligable, even more so with the proposed damage buffs.

/end of X-post



Stated shortly the damage output of the current Light Tank is abysmal, mainly because of past experiences years ago when swarms of Light Tanks used to wreak havoc in the early game vs buildings (power plant harassment comes to mind) and was subsequently nerfed hard. 12,5% Heavy and 20% Light damage buffs from its current negligable damage output may sound inconsequential but will to some degree encourage more use for early-game map control when having a noticable effect vs Rangers, Mobile Flaks, re-deployed MCVs and to some degree, APCs. It also aims towards supporting its role in flanking ranged light armor (V2, Artillery) in the mid- to late-game. In turn it widens Allies tech option a little bit having Light Tanks as infantry support while deciding upon a tech route.

Due to the current meta (competetive) Light Tank damage buff playtesting wasn't the most apparent but in those specific instances where they were utilized strongly they showed some good promise on better filling its role as an early game map control unit.

It's kind of amusing that this topic has less conversation despite it having a more split poll compared to the Mammoth Tank balance discussion.

Any more thoughts on this?

"Rate of fire halved, damage doubled"
What you mean by that they should shoot faster?

Materianer wrote: ↑"Rate of fire halved, damage doubled"

They would fire 100% slower. So instead of having them fire rapid hamster pellets each shot sort of feel like they pack a punch.

I voted no, i'm actually fine with increases of Versus values. But i would prefer seeing them rapid fire. I don't think this change doesn't effect balancing anyway as DPS is still same.

MustaphaTR wrote: ↑I voted no, i'm actually fine with increases of Versus values. But i would prefer seeing them rapid fire. I don't think this change doesn't effect balancing anyway as DPS is still same.

Yes, it will make a difference though when you have - for exmaple - a light tank chasing a flak truck. And let's be honest here, chasing around enemy units of the same tier is pretty much one of the main aims of a light tank. In this regard, halving the atk speed while doubling the damage, will make a slight diff here. (In my view widening the window of a possible retreat a bit for the flak truck in this case)

MustaphaTR wrote: ↑I voted no, i'm actually fine with increases of Versus values. But i would prefer seeing them rapid fire. I don't think this change doesn't effect balancing anyway as DPS is still same.

There are a few exceptions depending on situations.

A single light tank it will do roughly the same damage with a few exceptions (Such as Jazz examples)

However when you put five light tanks together they now seemingly shoot much faster due to numbers and these can increase damage potentials.

AoAGeneral1 wrote: ↑

MustaphaTR wrote: ↑I voted no, i'm actually fine with increases of Versus values. But i would prefer seeing them rapid fire. I don't think this change doesn't effect balancing anyway as DPS is still same.

There are a few exceptions depending on situations.

A single light tank it will do roughly the same damage with a few exceptions (Such as Jazz examples)

However when you put five light tanks together they now seemingly shoot much faster due to numbers and these can increase damage potentials.

I also think it might be possible to kite medium and heavy tanks with light tanks since they have the same range but a lot more speed. However they are weak and cant fight head on

MustaphaTR wrote: ↑I voted no, i'm actually fine with increases of Versus values. But i would prefer seeing them rapid fire. I don't think this change doesn't effect balancing anyway as DPS is still same.

Ok that's a valid concern. So I spent some time collecting some data:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/u1vaou7y0ht1y ... t.odt?dl=0

Assuming these numbers are true we have a more clear picture of how this buff would affect specific units in terms of efficient damage compared to the current Light Tank:

vs APC
still: +12%[tab][tab][tab]moving: +6,7%

vs Light Tank
still: +13,5%[tab][tab][tab]moving: +12,2%

vs Ranger
still: +20%[tab][tab][tab]moving: +7,1%

vs Mobile Flak
still: +20%[tab][tab][tab]moving: +14,6%


As mentioned in the document, with the first shot carry 100% (alternatively 70%) more damage it will add somehat to the efficiency overall, not measured in this test.

Ok so vs fast units the Light Tank buff has a positive effect despite cutting the rate of fire in half. We then could both have the Light Tank look less like a mosquito and let it pack some extra punch at the same time.

Assuming the above is true, would you consider switching your vote back to yes MustaphaTR?

I'm only against it because i think light tank should fire fast. I mean it is a light tank. Even tho i just checked the code it is still quicker than Medium tank, but not sure if enough.

I would say incrase damage and ROF by less than 100% as a middle point but 13 is prime. I'm not sure if we can define ROF values like 19,5.

The Light Tank buff ROF is way quicker than that of the Medium Tank. Approximately 1,9 shots per Medium Tank shots so you still have a big gap between the Light tank and tier 2 tanks in terms of ROF. It just simply doesn't look silly any more.

You might want to look beyond the code for this one. Here's a modded map with the proposed Light tank.
http://resource.openra.net/maps/15196/

Alternatively, ReloadDelay + Damage, both up by approx. 69%.

Both values scales really well to this approx % number - ReloadDelay, from 13 to 22 = 69,2% increase and Damage, from 16 to 27 = 68,8%.

The reason I initially doubled (100%) it was because it was the safest way to alter the fire rate and retain the original damage value (at least until #11719 comes along). 69% still feels good in terms of a visual upgrade.

Maintaining that .8125 ratio doesn't really matter all that much when you consider how slight the impact really is, and how underwhelming the light tank currently is. Putting the reload delay at 20 and damage at 25 worked fine in my playtests (ratio of .80). This also has the benefit of making the damage vs all light armor targets optimal; as it's a multiple of 50.
(All light armored vehicles have either 100, 150, 200, 300, 400, or 600 HP).

Currently the light tank does 16 damage vs light armor so:
6 shots does 96 damage ~ leaves the Artillery with 4hp
12 shots does 194 damage ~ leaves the V2 with 6hp
18 shots does 288 damage ~ leaves Phase transport with 12hp
*25 shots does 400 damage* ~ optimal for Chrono tank & Tesla tank
37 shots does 592 damage ~ leaves MCV with 8hp

If too many people find a reload delay of 26 too slow, perhaps considering 20 would be worth trying? FWIW a medium tank's reload delay is 50.

The ratio was maintained in order to retain damage output in relation to the vs light and heavy buffs, as that is what has been playtested specifically.

Speaking of playtests you really should get your changes more distributed with more maps! You're covering a great deal of stuff that should get more exposure and would benefit playtesting overall by having more versions of buffs to measure up against. Don't hold back on uploading a map series or something.

Frame_Limiter wrote: ↑Maintaining that .8125 ratio doesn't really matter all that much when you consider how slight the impact really is, and how underwhelming the light tank currently is. Putting the reload delay at 20 and damage at 25 worked fine in my playtests (ratio of .80). This also has the benefit of making the damage vs all light armor targets optimal; as it's a multiple of 50.
(All light armored vehicles have either 100, 150, 200, 300, 400, or 600 HP).

Currently the light tank does 16 damage vs light armor so:
6 shots does 96 damage ~ leaves the Artillery with 4hp
12 shots does 194 damage ~ leaves the V2 with 6hp
18 shots does 288 damage ~ leaves Phase transport with 12hp
*25 shots does 400 damage* ~ optimal for Chrono tank & Tesla tank
37 shots does 592 damage ~ leaves MCV with 8hp

If too many people find a reload delay of 26 too slow, perhaps considering 20 would be worth trying? FWIW a medium tank's reload delay is 50.

Keeping in mind these are targets that don't move. If a target moves and depending on the position of the light tank the damage given can be different numbers and require more hits.