Engineer's behaviour - Resetting production

Discussion about the game and its default mods.

What behaviour should the engy have ?

Resetting - No need to change !
20
59%
Holding building production
7
21%
Preventing building deployment
0
No votes
Only capturing, but faster
1
3%
Only capturing, same speed as now
6
18%
 
Total votes: 34

hotze
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun May 10, 2015 12:38 pm

Post by hotze »

christian wrote:
lucassss wrote: Christian - Can't the exact same thing can be said about swooping in with aircraft to check if an Ukranian player just produced a Demo truck and blow it up in his base?
It's not comparable at all. An Ukranian player take risks when he build demo trucks, it's his own choice whether he wants to take these risks (build demo trucks). It is however not your own choice whether someone tries to reset your production queue with an engineer (exploit a broken bug to gain an unfair advantage).
It is, however, your own choice not to defend against it.
It is completely comparable.

Christian
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Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:34 pm
Location: Planet Earth

Post by Christian »

hotze wrote:
christian wrote:
lucassss wrote: Christian - Can't the exact same thing can be said about swooping in with aircraft to check if an Ukranian player just produced a Demo truck and blow it up in his base?
It's not comparable at all. An Ukranian player take risks when he build demo trucks, it's his own choice whether he wants to take these risks (build demo trucks). It is however not your own choice whether someone tries to reset your production queue with an engineer (exploit a broken bug to gain an unfair advantage).
It is, however, your own choice not to defend against it.
It is completely comparable.
Not really. It can’t be countered with a flame tower since they are too slow and the delay between each shot for a pillbox is too high to counter it if perfectly timed and the engineer jumps out from the right side of the ranger/APC which again depends on luck. You can of course waste $400 on walls around your con yard if you bother to do that but the same can’t be done for the war factory. In most cases you can pretty much only hope for it to be poorly executed.

As for defending against a demo truck it mainly depends on your scouting also a demo truck requires you to make an investment on all maps while engi cheese doesn't on maps with oil. Demo trucks come in play later in the game too so not comparable at all. Engi cheese is exploiting broken game mechanics while using demo trucks isn’t.

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Murto the Ray
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Post by Murto the Ray »

christian wrote: Engi cheese is exploiting broken game mechanics
I wouldn't say they are broken, more like they are unintended. Several games ended up reaping an extra level of depth from these mechanics such as StarCraft brood war.

Vs allies you only need a wire/sandbag fence which comes to $100. If they decide to go for a light tank as well as a ranger then they are really only going to break even - most of the time - if they manage to reset your build queue due to how much their light tank will put them back.

Vs soviets you could do the same, the added time of having to crush the wire fence gives you more time to react and get over to the conyard, they are also fast enough to build that you could replace the fences before the engineer can be deployed and gets to your conyard.

I don't really mind whether this is kept in the game or not. It can be annoying and it can end a game quite quickly. But certain tells - such as derricks being on the map - can give you a head start in knowing if they are going to go for an engi reset or not. I think its fairly preventable and not game breaking.

zinc
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Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2014 3:46 pm

Post by zinc »

SoScared wrote: If the engineer could get more active roles during the game I'd fully support the fix. E.g. free, slow structure repair and detecting mines.

I will suggest that you could use them to upgrade an oil derrick (if at full health). So the engi enters it and you get more cash each time as a result.

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SoScared
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Post by SoScared »

@zinc: Given that oil derrics currently provides about 1/4 of what an active harvester does, that sounds a really cool idea.

lucassss
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Post by lucassss »

You should be careful not to improve derricks too much. Lots of derricks encourage turtling games instead of territory fighting games.

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SoScared
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Post by SoScared »

Sure but in that case maps are easy to modify.

Christian
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Post by Christian »

Murto the Ray wrote:
christian wrote: Engi cheese is exploiting broken game mechanics
Vs allies you only need a wire/sandbag fence which comes to $100. If they decide to go for a light tank as well as a ranger then they are really only going to break even - most of the time - if they manage to reset your build queue due to how much their light tank will put them back.

Vs soviets you could do the same, the added time of having to crush the wire fence gives you more time to react and get over to the conyard, they are also fast enough to build that you could replace the fences before the engineer can be deployed and gets to your conyard.

I don't really mind whether this is kept in the game or not. It can be annoying and it can end a game quite quickly. But certain tells - such as derricks being on the map - can give you a head start in knowing if they are going to go for an engi reset or not. I think its fairly preventable and not game breaking.
It's not only about securing the con yard which is the least of it and as I've already stated it's possible to protect the con yard at a cost although I think it's silly having to build walls (waste valuable money) around it just to prevent it. The engineer can reset the production queue for all production facilities and what you mention can't be done for the war factory and a reset on the war factory can easily be worse - it might set you back by 1 harvester or 1 mcv. It certainly can be game breaking and yes it is more likely to happen on maps with oil since there's no reason not to try it but we all know that already.

This bug is not adding depth to the game in fact it's quite the opposite it's adding limitations. Another problem is that you can maximize the chances for doing maximal damage by watching replays and studying build orders for maps.

On maps with oil a common build order is: deploy >> pp >> barracks >> refinery >> war factory. Then start building: ranger/APC >> harvester >> harvester >> harvester >> harvester >> harvester

It is now possible to fairly accurate estimate at what time say a harvester will be almost finished. Sad to say this but some maps with oil are barely playable right now – this bug is clearly ruining the game.

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