[RA Balance] Shock troopers

[anjew]

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its restoring its role. I think the openra implementation changed the role of the unit. Originally they were anti-tank. And they couldn't be crushed if i remember right

[Murto the Ray]

-Snip-

And originally the hind belonged to the soviets, flak trucks weren't in the game, the thief was and the demo truck could be built by both sides.

The original has nothing to do with how OpenRA RA should be balanced.

[anjew]

All those units counter what they were intended to.

There's a difference between moving some units around and filling in spots then completely changing the usage of the unit.
Much like the reason rocket troopers don't kill infantry.

Right now they eviscerate all infantry on the field since they kill in one shot and outrange everything. They can even creep up on tanya since tanyas attacks dont make them go prone. They should be a lot less damage than 1000%. I suggest a good way to give them some meaning is as a strong anti-tank unit and ok vs infantry but easily overwhelmed by themselves. I believe this was the original intention of them being introduced in the later expansions as a way to combat the overpowered strategy of running over every infantry unit (something still present in all openra mods).

[AoAGeneral1]

-Snip-

I've tested these changes this morning. It makes shock troopers immediately not worth it. With three shots to kill a rifleman a single rifleman kills the shock trooper before the shock trooper kills it. With two shots two riflemen win vs a shock trooper. I can see why you'd want the change so that they are focused on anti-tank instead of an all-round ground killing machine but if they are taking two shots to kill infantry i'd rather have a blob of less expensive riflemen/rocket troopers that can tackle ground more effectively than shock troopers and have the added benefit of being able to defend themselves from air too. Also - fyi - rocket troopers do more damage vs tanks than shock troopers, the only difference is the time for the rocket to travel which doesn't make a huge difference when tanks are usually going for the crush. If you make shock troopers this weak on their own then you have to keep them together in big blobs which makes them useless against defending smaller focused attacks with the rifles, rockets and flamers which are more effective in small numbers.

You need to test this in 1v1 gameplays and team games. Can't do skirmishes against the AI. You also need to test this with the idea mindset of "Is this an army of them by itself? Or am I mixing these with tanks?" Because yes they do die by rifle infantry. That is the counter. If you however mixed them with vehicles and other units? They are very powerful. hence, relying on one unit to win the game doesn't become the game prime. Mixing your units is the game prime. Rockets do more damage then shocktroopers but shocktroopers also have instant strikes and smart targeting. Which it does make a big difference because its less time for the vehicle to travel to them rather then rocket vs tank to meet each other and allowing the others to comb in.

This needs to be tested in games rather then single sessions. IE: MCV cost adjustment was tested with more then one player.

[jaZz_KCS]

Very yes. Normal rifle infantry is supposed to be the hard counter. Shockies are supposed to rock, albeit only in company of other heroes and only against verhicles, not so much against infantry.

So I think with AoA's idea to approach the values of original RA96, we're heading in the right direction.

[r34ch]

You need to test this in 1v1 gameplays and team games.

This is true but it doesn't invalidate Murtos testing of the numbers.

Flame troopers are $100 less and do more damage to buildings. Rocket soldiers are $100 less and do more damage to armour and defences. $300 of rifles can just about beat a shock trooper. Nerfing shock troopers in that way against basic infantry just doesn't work with the numbers.

Warcraft-styled aura

Imho I don't think that really fits into oRA. Every other RTS does stuff like this, oRA is kinda refreshing because units are unique but basic.

[Graion Dilach]

Generals has that in the form of the horde bonus or the propaganda though and apparently lifting stuff from that game is quite fine.

[scorp]

i like shockies being effective against both, infantry and vehicles. That's a reward for teching up and shockie's price and build time. It's good to have at least some high tech units that are worth teching up for...

what struck me as odd back when they buffed shockies is the huge range they have now. "old" shockies needed to move closer to their targets to be a threat. Also i think it makes sense for them to have less range than a tesla tank. So i see their range as a Point where id' test different numbers and stats.

[anjew]

$300 of rifles can just about beat a shock trooper.

That's in a one on one situation however is very often not like that at all since using tanks as damage tanks from the riflemen completely negate this.

And as you get more shock troopers they can cumulatively take on more inf to the degree where with 5 shockies vs 15 riflemen leaves 2 shockies alive. Not to mention that this is only in the case where infantry move to kill shockies and have their full view, otherwise the shockies can sit outside of riflemen range and kill them

[r34ch]

That's in a one on one situation

I meant mixing them with an army. I would just buy loads more cheaper infantry, and let my armour tank. While the armour tanks, the infantry make up the extra cell of range and even if they die easier, I have loads more than my opponent.

Anyways, the bigger issue is that this change would give Allies a massive help while not really helping soviets in any way. Medic rifle blobs would be insanely effective while soviets only get the rifle soldier to counter. Allies already have hinds, artys, tanyas and pillboxes. If anything soviets need more counters to shock troopers. Making shockies have one hard counter would make games vs russia really predicable.

[AoAGeneral1]

That's in a one on one situation

I meant mixing them with an army. I would just buy loads more cheaper infantry, and let my armour tank. While the armour tanks, the infantry make up the extra cell of range and even if they die easier, I have loads more than my opponent.

Anyways, the bigger issue is that this change would give Allies a massive help while not really helping soviets in any way. Medic rifle blobs would be insanely effective while soviets only get the rifle soldier to counter. Allies already have hinds, artys, tanyas and pillboxes. If anything soviets need more counters to shock troopers. Making shockies have one hard counter would make games vs russia really predicable.

This is theorizing on a 1 unit type vs many unit type however. Both allies and soviets have a hard time dealing with shockies due to their infantry damage. If a medic blob was to be used with the 1000 nerf then mixing in shockies and minigunners would counter this. Simply being because the medics would waste their healing on a tapped damage unit and the shockies after that would eat them like snack food.

In a mixed group vs mixed group the shockies become extremely powerful. This most common practice happens in team games. Two players can defense up or have an army built. Third player makes shockies and mix them in with the other two armies. It becomes extremely hard to stop.

However, in a 1v1 situation you could argue mixing in flak trucks with shockies is extremely hard to stop as well. Flak tracks for artillery snipes while the shockies kill everything else. Plus the flak tracks serve as anti air. Essentially, shockies become a multi role kill zone while the flak trucks also become a multi role kill zone.


r34ch: This is true but it doesn't invalidate Murtos testing of the numbers.

Flame troopers are $100 less and do more damage to buildings. Rocket soldiers are $100 less and do more damage to armour and defences. $300 of rifles can just about beat a shock trooper. Nerfing shock troopers in that way against basic infantry just doesn't work with the numbers.


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While these stats are true this is also looking at a 1 on 1 situation. Shockies become more powerful in numbers. Higher numbers = hard to stop. This means ten shockies do more damage then ten rocket soldiers, flametroopers, and rifles with an effective cost. Reason being:

Shockies can do the following:

Kill infantry instantly.
Switch targets quickly.
Destroy vehicles at a fast rate.
Destroy all buildings at a fast rate. (This includes pillboxes)

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If the 1000 is dropped this means an army mix with shockies will not trump as the last standers in a composition.

[r34ch]

...

I think we might be misunderstanding each other. Anyways all the talking in the world won't solve what an actual test would

[anjew]

I think we might be misunderstanding each other. Anyways all the talking in the world won't solve what an actual test would

That test won't achieve much if you go into it not knowing what can be changed nor how to test. You need an actual test with two players, it needs to be a fair test and you need to test cumulative strength, none of which it appears you have done.

AoA forgot to mention that shockies have more range then all infantry units except for Tanya who is one cell further. The flamethrower can do possible damage in the same cell range as the shockie but that is only if you ctrl click at their range and hope for range damage spread

The shockies far out range all tanks. And they just sit on the edge of a pillboxes range, meaning that pillboxes aren't really a counter. Maybe a micro-ed camo pillbox will get better results.

[r34ch]

That test

I didn't realise I had explicitly disagreed with how you are suggesting to test?

EDIT: You know what, I understand the sentiment. I was dismissive of the idea before giving it a proper chance which is being stupidly obstinate.

anjew, why don't you make a map with the changes and if you are about IRC, let me know and we can test. If we can get others to test too then we can see what people think of the idea in practice rather than just from discussion. Sound fair?

[anjew]

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no disrespect intended, I'm a very abrasive and antagonising person.

I will try to put something together that we can test out, once I learn how to mod a map :^)