Red Alert Balance Discussion [Release-20160508]

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Discussion about the game and its default mods.

What do you think of the current Red Alert balance?

Perfect!
2
6%
Almost perfect!
13
41%
Still a bit to be done!
14
44%
A lot still to be done!
1
3%
Really Imbalanced!
2
6%
 
Total votes: 32

PizzaAtomica
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Post by PizzaAtomica »

Wippie wrote: I Would like to suggest a faction specific buff:
  • Don't display the GPS timer of France to the enemie(s) when the Tech Center is built.
It fits the French theme
Yeah I agree with this, we discussed it a little during SoScared's stream yesterday. The idea is mainly that it makes it more difficult for the opponents to tell whether that Tech Center they have just scouted is real or not. Right now for instance, if they would see a Tech Center but no GPS timer, they would know it is fake instantly.

It would probably be a bit too overpowered to apply this to the nuke as well though. :D

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AoAGeneral1
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Post by AoAGeneral1 »

Ive been resisting posting in this thread since my lack of knowledge in RA. However, ive been a unit user and armor builder since the dark ages. Here are my thoughts:

Nerfing Shocktroopers HP and possibly range will not do any good.

The shockies mechanics allows them to instantly fire and strike targets which delivers an extremely fast rate of damage. This enables multiple shockies to have "Smart targeting" and select the next enemy unit close by that is alive which is why it seemingly makes them effective.

Nerf the 1000% damage instead vs infantry. Currently right now Shockies are completely backwards then what they were in RA96. RA96 they were meant for anti tank supporters while infantry were a direct counter. Since infantry were able to absorb multiple shots of the shockies this enabled them to soak and waste potential damage which counted as an even balance.

Heavy Tanks are garbage. Improve HP to 650 and play with the fire rate. They can be outgunned by Medium Tanks (and with the possible tested new German tanks which is an even bigger problem.)

Both heavy tanks and mammoth tanks rate of fire is pure garbage. Medium Tanks out shoot the tanks which increase their damage inflicted on them. Heavy Tanks vs Mammoth Tanks is far worse as the Heavys shoot even faster then Mammoths. If both the Heavys and Mammoth had the same rate of fire this would even out the odds and the Mammoths vs armor would be a force to reckon with. Both these vehicles lack rate of fire.

As far as air units go I think you both have the idea. The biggest biggest issues is price and time length of build.

Migs need a price reduction and a very slight decrease (Build faster) to their build speed and increase damage. Yaks are to effective vs buildings and various other units which outshines the MIGs. This includes hinds for the longbows.

MAD tanks are a dangerous leeway. VERY careful in adjusting this unit. Why?

Build four. Chrono + Iron curtian combo. Base has a hole in it. Four MAD tanks will kill any structure in its range and is EXTREMELY dangerous. However, reducing the cost and build timer for cheaper fast MAD tanks you could go with unable to chrono MAD tanks or perhaps have both. Cannot be chronoed or Iron Curtianed. (Much like the Demo truck). This will be a hard unit to work around.

However, on another note, Demo trucks do more serious damage then a single MAD tank and that is already cost effective. Another idea:

MAD tanks damage vehicles only. Which may require a reduction in its damage radius due to how effective it would be.

noobmapmaker
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Post by noobmapmaker »

Havent seen much V2's lately!

Do they need a little buff? Like +a couple % fire rate?
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Kwendy
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Post by Kwendy »

Aren't they doing exactly what they designed for?

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r34ch
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Post by r34ch »

AoAGeneral1 wrote: Nerfing Shocktroopers ... 1000% damage ... vs infantry
AoAGeneral1 wrote: The shockies mechanics allows them to instantly fire and strike targets which delivers an extremely fast rate of damage.
I think you've nailed it on the head. Shock troopers one shot every infantry in the game and have zero fire delay, all for a measly $400.

I would rather see shockies given a charge up time like the flamethrower and their damage multiplier vs infantry reduced. One shotting rifles is ok, but one shotting every infantry in the game alongside their overall damage is just silly.

A charge up time would allow defending units to do some actual damage before getting melted - be that some rifles or a V2.

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anjew
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Post by anjew »

r34ch wrote:
AoAGeneral1 wrote: Nerfing Shocktroopers ... 1000% damage ... vs infantry
AoAGeneral1 wrote: The shockies mechanics allows them to instantly fire and strike targets which delivers an extremely fast rate of damage.
I think you've nailed it on the head. Shock troopers one shot every infantry in the game and have zero fire delay, all for a measly $400.

I would rather see shockies given a charge up time like the flamethrower and their damage multiplier vs infantry reduced. One shotting rifles is ok, but one shotting every infantry in the game alongside their overall damage is just silly.

A charge up time would allow defending units to do some actual damage before getting melted - be that some rifles or a V2.
He hit the nail on the head many threads ago but no one seems to want to play around with it, they just want to remove the HP which has no bearing on their actual power. I'd argue to fix the damage and give them back their original HP.


I don't think I heard it on the forums but someone in game was saying that RA balance moves slow because no one wants to undo the work in singleplayer. Im just asking for some clarification on this so no one assume its correct. I just legitimately hope this isn't true because making the singleplayer more important than multiplayer alienates a lot more people. If people were actually concerned then i'd say to use separate stats for singleplayer.
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jaZz_KCS
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Post by jaZz_KCS »

The fact that Shockies are not one-shotting infantry in vanilla RA96 is - in my opinion - one of the most imp. factors here. In RA96, infantry was actually the hard counter towards them, which isnt really feasible atm in ORA except you amass the inf.

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r34ch
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Post by r34ch »

anjew wrote: balance moves slow because no one wants to undo the work in singleplayer.
Imho I think its more of an effort to try and get some sort of agreement on how the balance should move forward. Everyone has their own ideas on how to balance the overall game and there is also the fact that the RA1 mod is the most heavily played mod so changes aren't made lightly. Also you have to factor in the actual ongoing development process of the game such PRs, reviews, feature freezes etc and account for the fact that the meta takes a while to catch up with actual balance changes.

I think SoScared is making a good effort with the constant play-testing of custom maps by trying out ideas suggested by people in the community (and there have definitely been some really nice balance suggestions lately). I think discussion and play-testing is needed because other people have ideas and points of view that sometimes you just wouldn't have thought of.

EDIT: On that note, what are peoples thoughts on https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/pull/11431?

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anjew
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Post by anjew »

Seems fair enough to me r34ch. As I said, i just wanted to confirm that wasn't the case.

I personally think there should a forum made to discuss individual balance changes rather a big thread of mixed bag of opinions. I'd even argue that you should only post in it after you have a few posts on the forums. Don't mean to sound elitist but some suggestions are better than others.
The way these go often turn out very confusing, especially to try and read back through since there is like 3 threads for RA.
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klaas
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Post by klaas »

As seen in the last gamecast of SoScared, crushing infantry with phase transports feels like an exploit to me. Specially so since only few units can spot them.

I would suggest making either making cloacked units unable to crush infantry, or reveal them as soon as they crush something.

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FiveAces
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Post by FiveAces »

@klaas: Both sides have really efficient counters to phase transports, it's just that no one builds them.
As Allies, just mix in a spy, maybe even disguised as your own rifleman.
As Sovs, get a single dog, and phases have been rendered obsolete.

Check this cast at 26.55: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znqlnH1v6ps ;
SirCakealot knew that Hi had phases out on the field and preemptively sent a spy along with his attack.
The phases got killed before getting a single crush done.

zinc
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Post by zinc »

PizzaAtomica wrote: Yeah I agree with this, we discussed it a little during SoScared's stream yesterday. The idea is mainly that it makes it more difficult for the opponents to tell whether that Tech Center they have just scouted is real or not. Right now for instance, if they would see a Tech Center but no GPS timer, they would know it is fake instantly.

It would probably be a bit too overpowered to apply this to the nuke as well though. :D

You can let your enemy know that the nuke is fake and then trick them with it-- sell it and then put a real one in its place.

zinc
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Post by zinc »

noobmapmaker wrote: Havent seen much V2's lately!

Do they need a little buff? Like +a couple % fire rate?
I have got some early kills recently by rushing V2 with iron curtain and yaks to finish them off.

zinc
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Post by zinc »

r34ch wrote: I'm not so sure on adding 'new' units into the game like this, it kinda feels like the spy / British spy thing. Yea the cheaper spy grants you some interesting strategies (chrono base pushing locking down power) but it kinda feels like a cop out having an almost duplicate unit in the game considering there are plenty of original RA units that are still seriously underused.
I like the British spy idea but it's probably too powerful for the cost imo what with the ability to shut down power. Maybe $350 instead of $250.

If anything I would give (e.g.) France medics at half price and give Germany mechanics at half price.

Frakes
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Post by Frakes »

Marn wrote:
Norman_ wrote: forget the sub and try to add some good but not op mig aa missiles (instead of just adding validtarget: air to normal mavericks) for great air-air fights, which would be just a great addition to current gameplay 8)
Couldn't agree more. Allied longbows can shoot air along with destroyers, while soviets have a flack track aaaand.... that's it.... just flack track... (aside from rocket infantry that both factions share)...
Yep, agreed! As I have played RA for some time now, I still don't get what happened to soviet air superiority... Starting with questions like "wth happened to the range of allied AA tower" or "wtf do Soviets no longer have choppers" I slowly got the idea why they changed which. But it's not well balanced in my opinion.
Due to the problem of sight, choppers have huge advantages regarding scouting. They just stand at the same spot and see whats in front of them. While yaks and migs always have to fly by their target and need to return again. That in combination of mega-ranged-AA guns makes it unfair imho.

Another side note: One should ban the combination of chronosphere + Iron curtain. It's just too powerful. Chrono in 5 V2s, get them iron curtain and you can destroy any building you like. I suggest that IC does not work on teleported units, would make it more playable for non-perfect teams and beginners.

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