Red Alert Balance Discussion [Release-20160508]

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Discussion about the game and its default mods.

What do you think of the current Red Alert balance?

Perfect!
2
6%
Almost perfect!
13
41%
Still a bit to be done!
14
44%
A lot still to be done!
1
3%
Really Imbalanced!
2
6%
 
Total votes: 32

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r34ch
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Post by r34ch »

SoScared wrote: German Medium Tank
German Light Tank
I'm not so sure on adding 'new' units into the game like this, it kinda feels like the spy / British spy thing. Yea the cheaper spy grants you some interesting strategies (chrono base pushing locking down power) but it kinda feels like a cop out having an almost duplicate unit in the game considering there are plenty of original RA units that are still seriously underused.

Tbh I think new units should only be added if there is something seriously lacking in the balance.
Norman_ wrote: just played around with missile subs aa weapon on one of the new playtest maps - its not possible to hit airunits
I think the Soviets need a way to deal with any type of air unit over water so that Soviet vs Soviet match-ups can have a way to deal with air attacks over water too. Non tracking AA only works against Allied players not paying attention which I don't feel was ever an issue.

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hamb
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Post by hamb »

The germany idea is interesting SoScared, but I've always wondered about bringing back a third soviet country and giving them a tank airdrop, since soviet tanks are meant to be the best in the game :)

I agree with trying to change more underused units. For Germany, what about changing chrono tank so that it competes with medium tank if you tech late enough? A niche that tank fits is the ability to jump into infantry blobs or get in and get out quickly. A problem it has isn't exactly its damage, but its durability or escape. I'm hesitant on lowering the teleport time because of its infantry squish-teleport mechanic.

Tank comparisons:
Medium tank / $800 / 450 hp / heavy armor
Heavy tank / $1150 / 550 hp / heavy armor
Chrono tank / $1350 / 400 hp / light armor
Tesla tank / $1350 / 400 hp / light armor
Mammoth tank / $2000 / 900 hp / heavy armor

If we change chrono tank to have heavy armor (maybe lower its cost by $100?), you can send these units in high risk situations and front line them, if you tech late enough.

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Blackened
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Post by Blackened »

Could be the newb in me but it seems soviets seriously lack effective AA late game.

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r34ch
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Post by r34ch »

hamb wrote: For Germany, what about changing chrono tank so that it competes with medium tank if you tech late enough?
I'm not so sure they should 'replace' the med tanks late game, I think they should fill a new role so that the med tank still has a place even late game. I feel oRAs strength is that the units are very unique.

What if instead their jump range was doubled? (I would argue x2.5)

The meta is slowly shifting to more open maps with naturals and expansions. With a doubled jump range the chronotank gets a few unique options;
  • Jump past defences. You can blink right past a coil and do some damage to eco or power. The trade-off is the cool down gamble vs the cost of the chrono tanks. Good players will respond fast but it might be enough to breifly power down a heavily defended base or take out a key tech structure.
  • Reinforce expansions. You could quickly reinforce your nearest expansion by blinking to it. Along with some air units, this could be an effective counter if microed correctly.
  • New parts of maps and attack vectors are opened up. Island maps would be far more interesting and land maps with wide mountain ridges are no longer a physical barrier.
Currently their crap blink range means they can't even jump past a single base defense which really does restrict these units to weird niche roles that other units simply do better for much cheaper. Blinking onto infantry is cute, but arty, hinds and tanyas are much better and give more strategic options. Anti armour is ok but I'd rather spam meds for half the price and tech. If I use meds with mechs I can repair the husks.

abcdefg30
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Post by abcdefg30 »

r34ch wrote:
SoScared wrote: German Medium Tank
German Light Tank
I'm not so sure on adding 'new' units into the game like this, it kinda feels like the spy / British spy thing. Yea the cheaper spy grants you some interesting strategies (chrono base pushing locking down power) but it kinda feels like a cop out having an almost duplicate unit in the game considering there are plenty of original RA units that are still seriously underused.

Tbh I think new units should only be added if there is something seriously lacking in the balance.
Totally agree. I'm not a fan of adding more "duplicated" units.

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SoScared
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Post by SoScared »

r34ch wrote: I'm not so sure on adding 'new' units into the game like this, it kinda feels like the spy / British spy thing. Yea the cheaper spy grants you some interesting strategies (chrono base pushing locking down power) but it kinda feels like a cop out having an almost duplicate unit in the game considering there are plenty of original RA units that are still seriously underused.
I think I understand this concern. It would suffer a bit like D2K's main battle tanks in which the faction differences are based much on varieties of the same unit. However I'm looking to take the German Medium Tank somewhat further before taking a position on it. Visually, I want to see this tank with a slightly longer barrel (armor piercing) in order to correlate with the increased damage vs heavy armor. This is why I preemptively reduced the turret turn rate speed by 1. Subtle visual differences in the tank body counld be interesting. The name 'German Medium Tank' is perhaps something that could be named differently.

The idea behind the German Medium Tank is fixed on distinction for the German faction and to help move the Allied factions further into palatable traits. Germany is about efficiency, machinery and power and I thought it to be appropriate to use the German tank to display this trait. The unit would still be looked upon as a variation of the Medium Tank but could distinguish itself considerably and function as an option for Allied players looking to move more towards the battlefield and play aggressively.

In terms of functionality the tank does very well with the inherited agility of the Medium Tank combined with a powerful turret to take on other tanks and base defenses. The price of the tank reflects that and assuming the tank works for its' intended purpose, for the player looking to use the tank for this specific purpose, the price is justifiable. In comparison with the Soviet Heavy Tank the German Medium Tank still lose by a decent margin because of its' HP. The Soviet Heavy Tank also do more damage (relative to price) against all other armor types given that the German Medium Tank is boosted exclusively vs Heavy Armor.

Currently Germany is pinned down exclusively to its' late-game Chrono traits, including the clumsy Chrono Tank, with limited options to tweak and improve its' gameplay in a significant way.

This isn't something I'm planning to push down anyone's throat but I found the concept of a German unique tank too appealing not to pursue.

As for the German Light Tank, it's something I added as a little fun bonus for the playtesting to fool around with. The Light Tank still has some improving potential, something that could be experimented with this way simultaneously.

hotze
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Post by hotze »

Anyone remember the original multiplayer faction specific balancing?
England had 10% better armor, Germany 10% better firepower, France 10% slower ROF, Ukraine's units were 10% slower and Russia's units were 10% cheaper.

Perhaps this could be introduced again, changing the ROF of France to 10% faster and Ukraine to 10% faster.

If you want perfect balancing, you'll need to play mirror matches anyway.

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Murto the Ray
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Post by Murto the Ray »

-Summary-

Most people agree with the changes already proposed in the original post as well as those added to the latest release but shock troopers are still debated. Do they need a nerf or do other units simply need a buff?

Defences
  • Camo pillbox rework
  • Flame tower projectile rework (targeting/speed)
  • Walls to be made weaker or other units more effective against walls
Vehicles
  • MAD Tanks - get a clear idea together of what their role should be and then we can balance them around it. Throwing ideas without a plan wont get anywhere.
  • Mammoth mini iron curtain (Like chrono tank's chrono)
  • Chrono tank buff (more damage, shorter shift time or maybe just more armor; make them usable)
  • German tank buff (specialty)
Aircraft
  • Mig/Longbow buff
Naval
  • Give Missile Submarine AA rocket
Misc
  • Chronosphere buff of some kind
  • Faction specific buffs
Lets get some very clear ideas of the changes listed above. Some of them don't have a clear direction (MAD tanks) and some need to be more fleshed out and debated.

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anjew
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Post by anjew »

I think those classic ideas of one faction specializing in speed or armour etc. have been thrown away because at their core they aren't balanced.
Ideas like that usually benefit the faction with speed because what is the point in the extra armour/firepower if your units are being kited.

The aim of balance should be incorporate more units into the meta and having effective counters for them.
There is currently quite a few units that definitely need some work done

Medic: Seem so useless compared to medics in other RTS games. They happen to heal the same unit sometimes, wasting their heal.

Light tank: Horrendous damage and still have shit vision some how. Not worth the time or money to build them unless blocking refs (which got nerfed) or running over units (a misuse of the unit). However if you rank one of these suckers up, rifles all of a sudden do absolutely no damage (a bug i presume).

APC: Most misused unit due to the ease you can run over enemy units, they dont even leave pesky husks for infantry to hide in and units to get stuck on pathfinding. I'd argue to get rid of the machine gun but i like the little pea shooter.

Chrono tank: Definitely not worth the money or time to build these. They need a damage increase or more armour. Compared to other faction bonuses (demo truck, tesla tank) these units suck. 1 Chrono tank nearly loses a fight with a medium tank.

MAD: Needs a damage boost ASAP. It takes 0:48 seconds to build just 1 ($2000) and does little damage vs buildings (by itself) and even less to enemy units. Lackluster unit currently that is only worth it for the lolz in teamgames.

Gunboat: I thought this unit would be good in the navy. Nope. Horrible unit. 4 gunboats die to 2 missile destroyers. Pretty good against submerged subs but shit when they are above the water. The cannon needs a big buff.
Image

Shinnoky
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Post by Shinnoky »

About the Mammoth mini iron curtain will that not be a bit overpowered? How strong should a Mammoth tank get?

I have watched the stream yesterday and yes the chrono tank should be buffed, 2 flak trucks killed very easy a chrono tank and they do really little damage for such a late game and expensive unit.

For the German medium tank, I only read that it is a good late game unit against the soviets, but what about if you play another allies faction? How do you counter the German medium tank then?

Cause if i'm correct the German medium tank will devastate a normal medium tank and also the turret base defense. Maybe rocket soldiers, but just send 2 arties with them and the rocket soldiers are gone.

APC should be changed to, for a early game unit it's really powerfull and hard to counter early game. Even light tanks do almost nothing to them.

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Wippie
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Post by Wippie »

Murto the Ray wrote: -Summary-

Most people agree with the changes already proposed in the original post as well as those added to the latest release but shock troopers are still debated. Do they need a nerf or do other units simply need a buff?

  • Faction specific buffs
I Would like to suggest a faction specific buff:
  • Don't display the GPS timer of France to the enemie(s) when the Tech Center is built.
It fits the French theme

AmericanBlunt_
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Post by AmericanBlunt_ »

I suggest increasing the speed of the mad tnk 4-6 ticks

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r34ch
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Post by r34ch »

Murto the Ray wrote:
  • Camo pillbox rework
  • Flame tower projectile rework (targeting/speed)
  • Walls to be made weaker
+1
anjew wrote: The aim of balance should be incorporate more units into the meta and having effective counters for them.
There is currently quite a few units that definitely need some work done
This.

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SoScared
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Post by SoScared »

Shinnoky wrote: For the German medium tank, I only read that it is a good late game unit against the soviets, but what about if you play another allies faction? How do you counter the German medium tank then?

Cause if i'm correct the German medium tank will devastate a normal medium tank and also the turret base defense. Maybe rocket soldiers, but just send 2 arties with them and the rocket soldiers are gone
Medium Tank vs German Medium Tank head-to-head:
Image

It's designed specifically to deal more damage vs tanks and defensive structures but isn't superior to the medium tank by default. It's more expensive and does require the player to use them with care, else the extra cost is for nothing.

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SoScared
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Post by SoScared »

MAD Tank:

Someone somewhere suggested making the unit 'hero' like Tanya. This way you could pretty much give back it's original properties which was dealing partial damage with an incredible long range.

And, like Tanya, make the tank audiable when exiting the War Fac. :D

*Also really liking the idea of making infantry go prone and/or disrupt production while the Tank is charging up, as mentioned by lucas.
Last edited by SoScared on Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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