TD balance thread

[AoAGeneral1]

Apaches main problem now because it was changed in reload the fact that if an Apache is empty he reloads only one bullet instead of two which means he does fire only one shot.

The Orca for example shots 2 rockets each time when he reloads because he reloads 2 rockets.

I told you this AoA before you changed the Apache and I also told you it made the Apache way weaker.

Just change the reload from 1 to 2 bullets and Apache should be fine again.

It was also explained that because the Apache has a single fire reloard that it reloads much faster then the Orca. It also still reloads faster via two shots then compared to the Orca. So the damage output is still slightly higher then Orca due to their slower reload compared to the Apache. (When compared to empty clips.)

[AoAGeneral1]

There has been some concerns regarding prices of certain light tier units with some games. (IE: APC Being 550 and the effectiveness of humvees mixed with infantry.)

There have been some ideas brought up being that APCs are to cheap and need a higher price. GDave reminded me that APCs used to be 600 and used to have issues dealing with Recon Bikes and keeping up with Nod units. This price was then reduced to 550.

Since then however there have been some regards to increase the price again. But I have noticed a few things in regards to map plays and the higher usage of oil derricks. Some builds checking through replays and past castings on youtube show that Taking a few oil derricks early allows for quicker infantry play and some vehicle plays. This type of build order then forces the other player to respond by taking or preventing the player from taking the oil derricks himself or risk falling extremely behind if keeping to a one base play.

This brings up some discussions:

Do oil derricks provide to much money?
- I had some responses that oil derricks money generation is at the right pitch and doesn't need adjusting.

Do units need to be adjusted with oil derricks in mind?
- This one hasn't been discussed yet but I strongly disagree. Keeping in mind that CNC95 and RA95 never used oil derricks in their games. While its a nice feature to have, it would be a mistake to balance with oil derricks in mind. Doing so would create imbalanced maps that decide not to use oil derricks. (Mind you, we have a lot of great maps without oil and this would disrupt those greatly.)

Do maps with oil create imbalances?
- This one I find possible. Now some maps have well placed oils being hard to get too. Other maps have them extremely close to the starting position which makes them easy to grab. This in my opinion creates a problem as having an oil next to your starting location opts for barrack first plays as the stronger game. While I find map variations a good thing having to many oil derricks on a map can easily tip a game to favor one side if they lack oil.

Should Oil derricks be removed from TD?
- No. Oil derricks is a nice addition to ORA.

Should vehicles be removed from light support start?
- Strongly disagree. While the humvee and buggy have different HP and damages one is faster then the other. If the buggy is having a hard time out running the humvee then perhaps it needs a slight movement speed buff. Currently, it allows for aggressive scouting and preventions such as risking engineers to capture oil and other such tricks. (Also some cheesy dirty tricks. *Cough Borgmo Cough*)

Should medium support be more balanced?
- Somewhat agree. Im on the fence on how to approach this correctly as this could end the game instantly if one is not careful.
----------

This is mainly a discussion starter and currently Oil derricks will not see any adjustments at this moment.

There are a list of other things being looked at however:

Apache damage vs prone infantry. (Credit to Insert Name.)

Defense structures doing damage vs other defense structures. (Credit to Graion Dilach)

Another look at unit compositions of Light support.

A look at Medium Support.

A look at Heavy Support. (Heavy support will not be balanced in mind but more for fun vs AI games.)

Repair Pad. (Currently im fine with it but im willing to look more into it and test it. A few concerns with unit repairs being possibly to fast if not careful.)

Obelisk. (Im strongly biased so you are warned, will be hard to convince me.)

[ZxGanon]

Light support favors GDI over Nod. It is very easy for GDI to take mapcontrol (especially on maps with Oil).

I once gave you a sugestion to change the Oil ticks from 25$ every 2 seconds to 100$ every 8 seconds. That would first of all stop the constant stream of money that enables you to build everything at the same time. An eco burst every 8 seconds is harder to handle and requires you to specifically choose what to build. This would also not change the absolute eco income at all but the way it gets delivered over time. Also storage shouldnt be a problem in TD to handle burst income.

Obelisk to Radar tech would not only restore the old feeling of the original TD from WW but would finally make him usefull. I still wouldnt build the Obelisk because it costs way too much in terms of money and energy and dies super quick and it only can attack ground (Advanced Guard Tower is better in every way).

Stealth Tanks being announced on the battlefield is also less stealth .
Even though its the same as in the original it is just dumb.

Service Depot takes ages to even heal up Light Tanks.

Engeneers could also use a change to atleast make them more reliable (increase their damage against buildings to 55% or 60% so 2 Engineers gurantee a capture).

[anjew]

Stealth Tanks being announced on the battlefield is also less stealth .
Even though its the same as in the original it is just dumb.

I put this specifically up on Github last year because I assumed its a bug. Apparently the intention is to do all sounds but I think something is blocking progress.
https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/issues/12850
https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/issues/9487

[AoAGeneral1]

Reasons for Stealth tanks is in the github ticket.

As for favors it isn't exactly clear cut. Its only favored in damage and HP. However, speed is another thing. As mentioned, if the speed isn't enough then it might need a slight buff. You can run from humvees rather then engaging and still scout just fine.

Changing the oil tick from 15$ at 2 seconds to 100$ at 8 seconds is extra gain. The issue isn't just one oil derricks but having multiples. 3 oils owned is 45$ every 2 seconds. Increasing it to 100$ at 8 seconds is 300$ at 8 seconds. Which is essentially a free buggy or 3 minigunners every 8 seconds. Minigunners producing at 2 seconds allows you to produce 3 in 6 seconds. Wait another 2 seconds, and you get another 3 set.

This also applies to buggies. Buggies take 8 seconds to build and costing 300$ which equals up completely to 8 seconds for an earning of 100$.

---------

Obelisk nearly one shots every unit in the game. (Exception of MCVs, Mediums, Mammoth, and structures of most kinds.) With a -90 power consumption being at 1500$ cost with about 0:50 time duration makes them extremely strong. A game against Borgmo where I had one kill 5-7 e3 infantry with one tower shows strength. If some people say these die to easily then its possible they need a HP buff. At this moment, I have no intention of moving their tech due to their strength.

The repair pad seems fine as it is considering with most units. Increasing its speed will have a huge affect on light vehicles. A few listed examples with units in red health bar.

Buggy repair: About 6 seconds.

Bike repair: About 6 seconds.

Artillery repair: About 4 seconds.

Light Tank repair: About 20 seconds

Harvester repair: About 37 seconds.

Medium Tank repair: About 26 seconds.

Mammoth Tank (Half Health): About 28 seconds.

Mammoth Tank (Near dead): About 43 seconds.

Now the Light tank and Medium Tank may appear to take a long time. (Including the harvester.) But consider that the repair pad is 500$ at -30 power with 0:12 build time, you could build two additional repair pads or even three. Which actually would be a smart thing to do seeing as the repair pad itself is a tech tree to the MCV. (Which needless to say, some players STILL don't build a repair pad.) Try considering doing 2-3 repair pads if you plan to keep armies alive. Healing three tanks at a time in about 20-26 seconds is actually pretty quick. Keep in mind too, these are close to dead tests. Healing a vehicle at yellow bar will be much quicker.

[ZxGanon]

Woops I messed up the tickrate of the current oil derrick. I believed it was 25$ per 2 seconds instead of 15$ per 2 seconds.
Of course than it would be correct to change it to 105$ every 14 seconds. And like I mentioned above it would change to burst eco instead of a slow payup.
If my Oil derrick is destroyed in before it does tick I lose 105$.

Than again I would also suggest to lower its HP by a lot but make it recaptureable.
That would make it targetable for an Airstrike of course but you would be wide open for the next 4 minutes because you got no Airstrike to defend.

If multiple Oil Derricks stand next to each other it isnt the games fault but the map itself.

And yes that would balance it mainly for 1v1 and 2v2 because everything above is not competitive.

Back to the Obelisk case:
I have started building and he is absolute trash. Even though he one hitted 1 light tank and a few infantrists he just instantly dies and is waste of money. And yes I walled this Stick of Bullshit and still wasnt worth the money. 3 Turrets would have done a better job. Not to forget I invested 3x250 to get walls aroud this weaklings obelisk.

Also you seem to forget that with every Obelisk (technically speaking) you have to build a normal Power Plant to get out of energy hell which means he costs 2000$ (I know you can build advanced Power Plants but that still means I always need more energy after one Obelisk already).

I my opinion the Obelisk does have his peak of strength on mid tier level and on T3 he is just weak and can get bitchslapped by everything because at that point everyone has moe than enough to break this thing.

If you still think he would be too destrcutive how about nerfing its attackspeed? I cannot even remember that it had such an attackspeed in the original. That would be more than fine because than I had to micro my Obelisks.

[AoAGeneral1]

Obelisk is very close if not exactly the same attack speed of the original. I think its only difference is the first charge fires faster.

Power plant hell isn't to much of an issue. its -90 power and using a regular power plant its 100. However, advanced power plants are 200. You can build two Obelisk and be at -180 and still be in power.

Have you tried using walls for the Obelisk?

So about 3 oils is 315$ at 14 seconds. While a buggy builds at 10 seconds. Still has some of the same issues mainly just applied to vehicles.

Burst eco is effective with a harvester spam. This is incredibly effective with oil derricks and harvesters combined since harvesters unload tiberium in a type of tick rate. So its stacked on top of each other. Its essentially why having two refineries being unloaded at the sametime gives a huge economy boost.

[Orb]

Reducing the power cost of the SD to -20 would make them easier to include in builds. I think that would be worth it even if you increased the cost to 600 to "compensate".

I also find obelisks pretty useless. I'm finding trouble countering GDI lategame with the medium tank spam. If you increased their damage to 1 shot a medium tank and correspondingly decreased the rate of fire (so same DPS), that would nudge them in the right direction imo.

[ZxGanon]

Have you tried using walls for the Obelisk?

And yes I walled this Stick of Bullshit and still wasnt worth the money. 3 Turrets would have done a better job. Not to forget I invested 3x250 to get walls aroud this weaklings obelisk.

I have build 3 Obelisks that game...I could have build 6 normal turrets instead and they would have done a better job.

[AoAGeneral1]

6 gun turrets wouldn't effectively kill many if at all any infantry at all compared to three obelisks.

Will look into the power cost of the repair pad. Im actually trying to remember what the reason for increasing it from -10 to -30 was.

Increasing damage of the Obelisks and reducing fire rate then becomes an even bigger problem for them vs infantry.

[WhoCares]

Why not make it :

- charge
- fire 3 bursts of X damage with no "reaload" delay
- charge again

In this case it can beam 3 different weak target (infantry ?) or a big one like a medium tank in one charge ?

or current setting but with a splash damage that only affects infantry ? One burst on an unit and all infantry in X radius get injured as well .

[Orb]

"6 gun turrets wouldn't effectively kill many if at all any infantry at all compared to three obelisks"

>_>

I ran some tests. (on the playtest)


3 turrets vs 1 obelisk. Not perfect cost wise, but very close. -60 power and 1800 cost in turrets, while -90 power and 1500 cost in obelisk. Considering building power plants also takes up your construction build time, I'll consider it equivalent.

It took roughly 6 seconds for 3 turrets to kill 2 minigunners, or 8 bursts of the turret. Even if the infantry were moving. It took about 6 seconds for an obelisk to kill 2 minigunners. So, about the same time, with maybe a slight edge to the obelisk.

Then I looked at antivehicle damage. Using the same metric, it took 3 bursts from the turrets to kill a light tank, while a single shot from the obelisk. Much faster on the turret side.

Healthwise, the obelisk took half damage from an obelisk shot, while turrets took 3/4''s. Cost effectively, this means turrets soak twice as much damage as obelisks.

The only advantages obelisks have are 1 cell additional range, shooting over walls (which are kind of weak and expensive anyway), and not losing DPS as quickly by taking damage (1 out of the 3 turrets will die before an obelisk will, so the obelisk will have higher DPS).

Otherwise, obelisks perform worse as a defense structure. Additionally, it has several other weaknesses. You can't "split" it to defend a large area. It can only defend the one spot it is in. It has a charge up time. Turrets fire instantly. Obelisks also overkill, while turrets do not. Obelisks require temple of nod tech.

My conclusion: Obelisks suck (compared to the turret)

For fun I also checked out the adv guard tower.

It costs 1000 and draws -50 power, so effectively 2/3's the cost of an obelisks.

It has 1 more range. It takes 5 seconds to kill a minigunner, which gives it about the same cost effectiveness vs infantry as the obelisk. It takes 8 seconds to kill a light tank, which is quite significantly less damage. It also has slightly less health (but since it costs less, it has way more health cost wise). It shoots immediately and continuously as well, unlike the obelisk. Oh, and it shoots air.

Conclusion: GDI Adv Guard tower is way better than the obelisk.

[anjew]

Obelisks also overkill, while turrets do not.

This is subjective, depends on what you define as an overkill.

But otherwise, i can agree I'd rather a combination of turrets and GT as Nod because its faster to build 2 of the tier 1 defence structures than 1 obelisk. Even an AGT is faster.

[AoAGeneral1]

"6 gun turrets wouldn't effectively kill many if at all any infantry at all compared to three obelisks"

>_>

I ran some tests. (on the playtest)


3 turrets vs 1 obelisk. Not perfect cost wise, but very close. -60 power and 1800 cost in turrets, while -90 power and 1500 cost in obelisk. Considering building power plants also takes up your construction build time, I'll consider it equivalent.

It took roughly 6 seconds for 3 turrets to kill 2 minigunners, or 8 bursts of the turret. Even if the infantry were moving. It took about 6 seconds for an obelisk to kill 2 minigunners. So, about the same time, with maybe a slight edge to the obelisk.

3 turrets would be dead vs chem troopers, rocket infantry, grenadiers, and a commando.

Sending such units against an obelisk is a little more risky. More so deadly since Commandos are unable to reach the obelisk or go near them unlike other defenses.

Then I looked at antivehicle damage. Using the same metric, it took 3 bursts from the turrets to kill a light tank, while a single shot from the obelisk. Much faster on the turret side.

Three turrets clumped together true. But placing turrets in a clump results in airstrike food and artillery abuse. While an Obelisk covers a larger range of area in defense.

Healthwise, the obelisk took half damage from an obelisk shot, while turrets took 3/4''s. Cost effectively, this means turrets soak twice as much damage as obelisks.

Sounds like Obelisk need a HP buff.

The only advantages obelisks have are 1 cell additional range, shooting over walls (which are kind of weak and expensive anyway), and not losing DPS as quickly by taking damage (1 out of the 3 turrets will die before an obelisk will, so the obelisk will have higher DPS).

Otherwise, obelisks perform worse as a defense structure. Additionally, it has several other weaknesses. You can't "split" it to defend a large area. It can only defend the one spot it is in. It has a charge up time. Turrets fire instantly. Obelisks also overkill, while turrets do not. Obelisks require temple of nod tech.

Im not understanding the entire overkill damage. Does this mean the Obelisk needs a nerf in damage? Because having overkill damage on the Obelisk is an unfixable state since it needs to do its damage vs certain unit types and structures.

My conclusion: Obelisks suck (compared to the turret)

For fun I also checked out the adv guard tower.

It costs 1000 and draws -50 power, so effectively 2/3's the cost of an obelisks.

It has 1 more range. It takes 5 seconds to kill a minigunner, which gives it about the same cost effectiveness vs infantry as the obelisk. It takes 8 seconds to kill a light tank, which is quite significantly less damage. It also has slightly less health (but since it costs less, it has way more health cost wise). It shoots immediately and continuously as well, unlike the obelisk. Oh, and it shoots air.

Conclusion: GDI Adv Guard tower is way better than the obelisk.

Obelisk two shots the Adv Guard Tower. Just throwing that in there.

--------------------

Having multiple shots on an Obelisk will decimate infantry armies way to quickly. Giving them an AoE type attacks would also be rather deadly as having about two Obelisks will wipe armies out relatively quickly. Let alone would end up doing damage to both tanks and infantry in a group.

[ZxGanon]

There is no point in discussion if you get sarcastic answers guys give it up.

I would rather see TD die than discussing 1 minute with AoA again.
Last time I did that I had extreme headaches even though we formed the most simple and effective arguments that could have been made.

But than he wants to nerf the humvee after losing 5 games against GDI.

If I wouldnt have forced a testrun with Borgmo to look at Humvee vs Buggy the Humvee would have been nerfed 100% in next patch.

So yeah guys just leave this thread and dont try.

Sorry AoA but even I have to throw the towel if its pointless.