thanks
TD balance thread
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AoAGeneral1
- Posts: 597
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:11 pm
My recent experience is infantry + turrets and minimum of vehicles easily shuts down bikes in the early game and later gdi is ahead because of the better eco start and MLRS available.
3 exceptions to this _may_ be:
1) bike spam on open maps,
2) later barracks timing because of additional plant required in wr/airstrip opening or otherwise risk of worse eco start like I've seen in your games
(plant ref barracks ref VS plant ref wr/airstrip ref to sell and harvester ends with 2 harvesters vs 3)
3) gdi trying to expand,
so I'm open to games with you to test this out.
3 exceptions to this _may_ be:
1) bike spam on open maps,
2) later barracks timing because of additional plant required in wr/airstrip opening or otherwise risk of worse eco start like I've seen in your games
(plant ref barracks ref VS plant ref wr/airstrip ref to sell and harvester ends with 2 harvesters vs 3)
3) gdi trying to expand,
so I'm open to games with you to test this out.
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AoAGeneral1
- Posts: 597
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:11 pm
Im willing test but at work. I will be off monday or up late today (sunday).
The different builds are dependant on map types such as the barracks one for smaller maps. I will put a replay up later.
As for bike spams it comes down to player use and if GDI can be contained. Though in some games against certian players its about containing regardless. Majority of the test has been about the artillery.
The different builds are dependant on map types such as the barracks one for smaller maps. I will put a replay up later.
As for bike spams it comes down to player use and if GDI can be contained. Though in some games against certian players its about containing regardless. Majority of the test has been about the artillery.
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AoAGeneral1
- Posts: 597
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:11 pm
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AoAGeneral1
- Posts: 597
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:11 pm
The Artillery and MRLS in games have become scout-tilleries. Infantry and artilleries/MRLS have been death marching in waves to the enemy due to the range of the arty and MRLS enabling them to shoot farther without much scouting.
With a vision range of 8 matching the buggy and hummers which both buggy and hummers are supposed to be scout units anyways doesn't make any sense.
Reducing the range will make it so these units can't march into the enemy and easily win games. Granted, this is more counterable in 1v1 and 2v2 games but much harder in 3v3+ due to the nature of team games.
Both Artillery and MRLS range reduced from 8c0 to 5c0. (Currently in playtest)
Commando Scan Radius increased from 6 to 8. (Currently not in playtest)
I dun goofed when I buffed the Commando. Forgot to increase the scan radius here to make them effectively fire at 8 range once scouted.
With a vision range of 8 matching the buggy and hummers which both buggy and hummers are supposed to be scout units anyways doesn't make any sense.
Reducing the range will make it so these units can't march into the enemy and easily win games. Granted, this is more counterable in 1v1 and 2v2 games but much harder in 3v3+ due to the nature of team games.
Both Artillery and MRLS range reduced from 8c0 to 5c0. (Currently in playtest)
Commando Scan Radius increased from 6 to 8. (Currently not in playtest)
I dun goofed when I buffed the Commando. Forgot to increase the scan radius here to make them effectively fire at 8 range once scouted.
Correct. Both sides also have turrets/guard towers.Wraith1uk wrote: ↑ hey guys, im completely new to this, used to play cnc in childhood and just stumbled upon openra, ITS AMAZING!!!!!!!!
quick question, i did remember NOD having commando in original, they dont seem to have commando unit in this version?
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AoAGeneral1
- Posts: 597
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:11 pm
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AoAGeneral1
- Posts: 597
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:11 pm
Flame infantry attack spread increased from 341 to 468. (Currently not in playtest)
Check the ticket number here. https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/pull/1 ... -294875281
Props to Item for displaying the image differences.
Check the ticket number here. https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/pull/1 ... -294875281
Props to Item for displaying the image differences.
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AoAGeneral1
- Posts: 597
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:11 pm
Now in release:
Add detection to temple of Nod.
artillery minimum range increase from 2c896 to 3c0.
mammoth tank HP increase from 800 to 870.
ion time increase from 3:00 to 4:30.
nuke timer from 5 to 6.
nuke damage spread fallout increased from 1000, 368, 135, 50, 18, 7, 0
to 1000, 700, 500, 300, 150, 50, 0
nuke spread damage increased from 100 to 110. (First spread modifier)
a10 timer increased from 3:30 to 4:00.
MSAM HP from 120 to 180.
Commando weapon range increased from 6c0 to 8c0.
Commando weapon projectile speed increased from 1c682 to 5c682.
Commando price increase from 1000 to 2000.
Commando build time increased from 24 to 32.
Husks interval timer increased from 2 to 6.
Chem damage vs none reduced from 100 to 70.
Chem damage vs armor increased from 50 to 75.
Grenadier accuracy reduced from 213 to 813. (Makes them miss a lot more).
Flamer damage vs armor reduced from 20 to 10. (Flame infantry)
Flamer damage vs none increased from 100 to 110. (Flame infantry.)
Harv build timer increase from 24 to 27.
Harvester HP increase from 600 to 625.
Airstrip/Weapons factory power increased from 30 to 50.
Command Center power increased from 40 to 50.
Refinery power reduced from 50 to 40.
Refinery tiberium hold reduced from 2000 to 700.
Silo hold increase from 2000 to 3000.
AGT HP from 600 to 550.
Light Tank price reduced from 700 to 650.
Visceroid spawn reduce from 10 to 5.
Increase all building HP by 100.
Gun turret HP increase from 400 to 410.
Starting units adjusted for light support. (Humvee as GDI vs Buggy as Nod)
MCV build time decreased from 1:36 to 1:00.
Engineer HP increase from 25 to 30.
APC HP increase from 210 to 215.
APC Damage vs light decreased from 105 to 100.
APC cost decreased from 600 to 550.
Recon Bike HP decreased from 120 to 110.
APC movement speed increased from 128 to 132.
MRLS range reduced from 12c0 to 11c0.
MRLS damage vs none reduced from 35 to 25.
Obelisk power reduced from 150 to 90.
Obelisk is now charge fixed.
Chinook speed increased from 140 to 150.
Apache mobile speed decreased from 186 to 180.
Both Orca and Apache turnspeed increased from 4 to 7.
Both Artillery and MRLS vision range reduced from 8c0 to 5c0.
---------------------------
The devs have poured a lot of time into OpenRA itself and have done a fantastic job in presenting the changes in the release version. When you have the time I support the fact to give them a shout out in the IRC channel.
Add detection to temple of Nod.
artillery minimum range increase from 2c896 to 3c0.
mammoth tank HP increase from 800 to 870.
ion time increase from 3:00 to 4:30.
nuke timer from 5 to 6.
nuke damage spread fallout increased from 1000, 368, 135, 50, 18, 7, 0
to 1000, 700, 500, 300, 150, 50, 0
nuke spread damage increased from 100 to 110. (First spread modifier)
a10 timer increased from 3:30 to 4:00.
MSAM HP from 120 to 180.
Commando weapon range increased from 6c0 to 8c0.
Commando weapon projectile speed increased from 1c682 to 5c682.
Commando price increase from 1000 to 2000.
Commando build time increased from 24 to 32.
Husks interval timer increased from 2 to 6.
Chem damage vs none reduced from 100 to 70.
Chem damage vs armor increased from 50 to 75.
Grenadier accuracy reduced from 213 to 813. (Makes them miss a lot more).
Flamer damage vs armor reduced from 20 to 10. (Flame infantry)
Flamer damage vs none increased from 100 to 110. (Flame infantry.)
Harv build timer increase from 24 to 27.
Harvester HP increase from 600 to 625.
Airstrip/Weapons factory power increased from 30 to 50.
Command Center power increased from 40 to 50.
Refinery power reduced from 50 to 40.
Refinery tiberium hold reduced from 2000 to 700.
Silo hold increase from 2000 to 3000.
AGT HP from 600 to 550.
Light Tank price reduced from 700 to 650.
Visceroid spawn reduce from 10 to 5.
Increase all building HP by 100.
Gun turret HP increase from 400 to 410.
Starting units adjusted for light support. (Humvee as GDI vs Buggy as Nod)
MCV build time decreased from 1:36 to 1:00.
Engineer HP increase from 25 to 30.
APC HP increase from 210 to 215.
APC Damage vs light decreased from 105 to 100.
APC cost decreased from 600 to 550.
Recon Bike HP decreased from 120 to 110.
APC movement speed increased from 128 to 132.
MRLS range reduced from 12c0 to 11c0.
MRLS damage vs none reduced from 35 to 25.
Obelisk power reduced from 150 to 90.
Obelisk is now charge fixed.
Chinook speed increased from 140 to 150.
Apache mobile speed decreased from 186 to 180.
Both Orca and Apache turnspeed increased from 4 to 7.
Both Artillery and MRLS vision range reduced from 8c0 to 5c0.
---------------------------
The devs have poured a lot of time into OpenRA itself and have done a fantastic job in presenting the changes in the release version. When you have the time I support the fact to give them a shout out in the IRC channel.
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AoAGeneral1
- Posts: 597
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:11 pm
Alright its time to build up a list of things to change. (This time a lot smaller. Ahem. >_> )
Starting off with the hummers. I am currently testing damage output on the hummer instead. Following has been tested as of right now:
Hummer damage vs light increased from 50 to 70.
Their base damage is 15 much like the buggy but with a slight increase this will help to fill the role as both a price different unit besides the HP and their damage. Bike and buggy combos are still a viable strategy vs the hummers but now if you are going against a GDI player going both hummer and infantry this will become a scary combination. Going with an APC and infantry combo is also another viable strategy but incase there are some maps designed around the fact of going factory first and claiming land to be a priority this will help GDI in that regard.
Oil Derricks.
These structures have been needing some attention for awhile now. (Besides the HP buff in the past). Will be looking to mettle with the price output on these. Originally I am thinking from 15 a tick to 20. But it might possibly be 30. The biggest change I want to throw in is an engineer refund of 250$ back instead of 0. This will help compensate some of the loss while at the sametime rushing for oil derricks right away isn't extremely powerful.
Guard Tower and Gun Turret specific faction only.
This has sprung up on rare occasions and have had my eye on an old thread for a long time. (About almost over a year ago). The idea behind this is of course as mentioned making the Gun Turret Nod only and Guard Towers GDI only. (Much like how CNC95 worked).
Im well aware of the balance issues that could crop up. However, some tweaks can be made to the Gun Turret to make them slightly stronger vs infantry but not as much as the Guard Tower. Nod is already a flexible faction and being that they have more toys to play with and stronger infantry plays means they will be able to survive without the Guard Tower.
Guard Tower for GDI however means they don't have a Gun Turret which can pose some problems vs light tank base raidings and bike runs. A solution to this is making them garrisoned. Minigunner would mean they fire their Guard Tower standard. Rocket Infantry firing their rocket for anti tanks. Even some Grenadier towers! This gives a flexible response against Nod.
Of course there is a problem right now as with the logic pointed out by AMHOL in ORA RA. Being that infantry worth are gaining veterancy while inside the structure at a rate much to high. Now, I actually like the veterancy unit idea in the structure but not the rate it gains. So this imposes a slight problem. IE:
Minigunner is 100$. Guard Tower is 600$. (500$ for the tower by itself.) It kills a flamethrower worth 200$. Minigunner inside gains a veterancy rank and now does more damage and faster fire rate. If the veterancy can be based off the structure it is garrisoned in this will fix the problem. (Would also fix this logic for future mods as well.)
Engineer capture logic.
This is back again. I made mention of this last release and its coming back again. Single capture logic for the engineers. This mechanic will follow closely to the CNC3 logic in which engineers capture structures with a delay before entering inside. This will also prevent people from selling structures or packing up their MCVs to avoid a capture while the engineer is doing a capture. Effectively it will lock the structure in place. No change will be done on husk captures as this currently works just fine.
Reason behind the engineer change: --
To costly. Going double engineer in a game of 1v1 and 2v2 requires 1000$ and if you add in the APC its 1550$. For Nod going chinook its 1750$. This is a huge investment and ultimately is a bad decision to make for back door captures. Bringing this down to a single capture means the cost is now only 1050$. (1250$ for Nod.) Much more feesible and cost worthy with a sense of risk still. This will also enable GDI to do some early shenanigans rather then having their hands tied with the exception of infantry drops.
Before you make a comment much the same as "But this will make it much harder for new players!"
Its called a brick wall. Build it around your Conyard/Com center. Denies it outright. You can also place a Guard Tower in the area.
"But what you mentioned above Nod may not get Guard Towers in the future!"
Everyone either goes buggy/bike combos or infantry combos in the start of the game. The price a player pays for not watching his base while out trying to dominate the field early on.
This kind of engineer practice also existed in RA2 online. The most common tactic in RA2 competitive was to build a wall around your Conyard with a pillbox/Sentry at the two corner pieces. This outright denied the engineer rushes.
Let me know on your feedback on the possible changes. This is just a small list beginning.
Starting off with the hummers. I am currently testing damage output on the hummer instead. Following has been tested as of right now:
Hummer damage vs light increased from 50 to 70.
Their base damage is 15 much like the buggy but with a slight increase this will help to fill the role as both a price different unit besides the HP and their damage. Bike and buggy combos are still a viable strategy vs the hummers but now if you are going against a GDI player going both hummer and infantry this will become a scary combination. Going with an APC and infantry combo is also another viable strategy but incase there are some maps designed around the fact of going factory first and claiming land to be a priority this will help GDI in that regard.
Oil Derricks.
These structures have been needing some attention for awhile now. (Besides the HP buff in the past). Will be looking to mettle with the price output on these. Originally I am thinking from 15 a tick to 20. But it might possibly be 30. The biggest change I want to throw in is an engineer refund of 250$ back instead of 0. This will help compensate some of the loss while at the sametime rushing for oil derricks right away isn't extremely powerful.
Guard Tower and Gun Turret specific faction only.
This has sprung up on rare occasions and have had my eye on an old thread for a long time. (About almost over a year ago). The idea behind this is of course as mentioned making the Gun Turret Nod only and Guard Towers GDI only. (Much like how CNC95 worked).
Im well aware of the balance issues that could crop up. However, some tweaks can be made to the Gun Turret to make them slightly stronger vs infantry but not as much as the Guard Tower. Nod is already a flexible faction and being that they have more toys to play with and stronger infantry plays means they will be able to survive without the Guard Tower.
Guard Tower for GDI however means they don't have a Gun Turret which can pose some problems vs light tank base raidings and bike runs. A solution to this is making them garrisoned. Minigunner would mean they fire their Guard Tower standard. Rocket Infantry firing their rocket for anti tanks. Even some Grenadier towers! This gives a flexible response against Nod.
Of course there is a problem right now as with the logic pointed out by AMHOL in ORA RA. Being that infantry worth are gaining veterancy while inside the structure at a rate much to high. Now, I actually like the veterancy unit idea in the structure but not the rate it gains. So this imposes a slight problem. IE:
Minigunner is 100$. Guard Tower is 600$. (500$ for the tower by itself.) It kills a flamethrower worth 200$. Minigunner inside gains a veterancy rank and now does more damage and faster fire rate. If the veterancy can be based off the structure it is garrisoned in this will fix the problem. (Would also fix this logic for future mods as well.)
Engineer capture logic.
This is back again. I made mention of this last release and its coming back again. Single capture logic for the engineers. This mechanic will follow closely to the CNC3 logic in which engineers capture structures with a delay before entering inside. This will also prevent people from selling structures or packing up their MCVs to avoid a capture while the engineer is doing a capture. Effectively it will lock the structure in place. No change will be done on husk captures as this currently works just fine.
Reason behind the engineer change: --
To costly. Going double engineer in a game of 1v1 and 2v2 requires 1000$ and if you add in the APC its 1550$. For Nod going chinook its 1750$. This is a huge investment and ultimately is a bad decision to make for back door captures. Bringing this down to a single capture means the cost is now only 1050$. (1250$ for Nod.) Much more feesible and cost worthy with a sense of risk still. This will also enable GDI to do some early shenanigans rather then having their hands tied with the exception of infantry drops.
Before you make a comment much the same as "But this will make it much harder for new players!"
Its called a brick wall. Build it around your Conyard/Com center. Denies it outright. You can also place a Guard Tower in the area.
"But what you mentioned above Nod may not get Guard Towers in the future!"
Everyone either goes buggy/bike combos or infantry combos in the start of the game. The price a player pays for not watching his base while out trying to dominate the field early on.
This kind of engineer practice also existed in RA2 online. The most common tactic in RA2 competitive was to build a wall around your Conyard with a pillbox/Sentry at the two corner pieces. This outright denied the engineer rushes.
Let me know on your feedback on the possible changes. This is just a small list beginning.
Proposed changes
Hi AoA,
I'm personally quite concerned with some of the proposed changes you mention, specifically engineer mechanics and oil changes.
Personally the engi mechanic is a root part of TD and external capture would change the feel of the game too much. Why not go back to single engi capture instead if cost is seen as an issue.
As for oil, I believe it is already too strong if anything and if buffed it will create a race to the oil situation in any map with it in.
Manning turrets, please no. Part of the appeal of TD is its simplicity, we can focus on tactics rather than complicated mechanics, and again it is not in the spirit of C&C1995
I hope you consider my points seriously as I love the game and I am aware you have a lot of influence over changes.
Thanks
Beans
I'm personally quite concerned with some of the proposed changes you mention, specifically engineer mechanics and oil changes.
Personally the engi mechanic is a root part of TD and external capture would change the feel of the game too much. Why not go back to single engi capture instead if cost is seen as an issue.
As for oil, I believe it is already too strong if anything and if buffed it will create a race to the oil situation in any map with it in.
Manning turrets, please no. Part of the appeal of TD is its simplicity, we can focus on tactics rather than complicated mechanics, and again it is not in the spirit of C&C1995
I hope you consider my points seriously as I love the game and I am aware you have a lot of influence over changes.
Thanks
Beans