TD balance thread
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AoAGeneral1
- Posts: 597
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:11 pm
Changed the build timer for APCs from 14 seconds to 15 seconds.
An oddity here is that it wasn't exactly on 14 seconds. It was closer to 13.6 seconds.
Changing this to be about 14.8 seconds will help a little from the mass production problem
rather then changing damages or HP further.
Increasing the price from 550 to 650 would streamline the mass harvester build (about 4 to 6 harvesters on one base.). Keeping this at 550 enables options for a two harvester open build.
As for the economy ideas will be listed here once the new release comes out.
An oddity here is that it wasn't exactly on 14 seconds. It was closer to 13.6 seconds.
Changing this to be about 14.8 seconds will help a little from the mass production problem
rather then changing damages or HP further.
Increasing the price from 550 to 650 would streamline the mass harvester build (about 4 to 6 harvesters on one base.). Keeping this at 550 enables options for a two harvester open build.
As for the economy ideas will be listed here once the new release comes out.
After seeing a disgusting show of behaviour on one of the streams today I would like to remind everybody that the OpenRA project is governed by a clear code of conduct. This code obligates us to exclude people who show toxic behaviour from contributing upstream - this is an important qualification on the "everyone" in "everyone is encouraged to participate".
Let me be clear: publicly belittling and mocking OpenRA contributors is both inappropriate and unacceptable. If you take that kind of behaviour on to GitHub or the development IRC channel then you can expect your suggestions or contributions to be rejected, and to be asked to leave (which may be backed with technical means if the situation escalates). We don't care whether you are right, or are just trying to help... if you don't know how to interact politely with others in a professional setting then you should find somebody else who does to speak/contribute on your behalf.
Edit: removed a statement that was intended to be ironic and finish up a rather strict statement with a bit of humor, but was inappropriate considering the context. This point is too important to let it be derailed.
Let me be clear: publicly belittling and mocking OpenRA contributors is both inappropriate and unacceptable. If you take that kind of behaviour on to GitHub or the development IRC channel then you can expect your suggestions or contributions to be rejected, and to be asked to leave (which may be backed with technical means if the situation escalates). We don't care whether you are right, or are just trying to help... if you don't know how to interact politely with others in a professional setting then you should find somebody else who does to speak/contribute on your behalf.
Edit: removed a statement that was intended to be ironic and finish up a rather strict statement with a bit of humor, but was inappropriate considering the context. This point is too important to let it be derailed.
Last edited by Sleipnir on Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ApornasPlanet
- Posts: 24
- Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:16 pm
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ApornasPlanet
- Posts: 24
- Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:16 pm
DeclineBlackened wrote: ↑Tib growing without blossom trees is currently disabled.
I added some balancing changes to one of more popular 1v1 map.
https://resource.openra.net/maps/26108/
These ideas was made by ZxGanon, Anjew and Void.
I increased the Service Depot repair rate by 100%
APC:
Cost changed from 550$ to 700$
Health reduced by 10%
Damage against heavy armor from 35 to 30
reverting the other changes that have been done before
In the current release the APC is dominating.
It is pretty tanky, has a lot of speed, can transport infantry, does have an instant hit projectile, does good to decent damage against everything and has the ability to attack air.
On top of this list is the spammability of this unit with 550$ which makes this unit unrivaled.
Through the spammability and the speed it can even counter masses of infantry.
It also counters Light Tanks and even Medium Tanks.
GDI mirror has devolved into APC and rocket soldiers spam only.
To not danger the identity of the unit and fight the issues and cost increase and a slight nerf of its damage against heavy is suggested to stop the cheer spamm of this unit and helping the counters (heavy armored units) to hold better against them.
Also GDI units are supposed to be expensive strong. Currently it feels like a tanky Nod unit.
Engineer:
SabotageHPRemoval increase from 50% to 55%
This change shall help evolving Engineer capture strategies. Currently if you try to capture a building with 2 Engineers you can simply repair your building before the second engineer enters which causes the building to not switch it's owner since the building HP goes beyond 50%. With 55% engineer SabotageHPRemoval it should no longer be the case.
Service Depot:
Heal rate increase by 100%
The repair speed of Service Depot has been very slow for quite a while.
It takes a long time to repair tanks like Light Tanks.
TD is a very fast paced game and the current Repair Rate is too slow to compensate and players rather throw their damaged units into the fight instead of choosing the ability to healing them.
Even in RA the repair rate got increased where vehicles play a minor role.
MCV:
Speed nerf from 71 to 60
Cost reduction from 4000$ to 3400$ (but still same build duration)
The MCV with its current speed enables to many possibilites for allin strategies since it can be used to not only tank but also for crushing.
Allins on most of the current maps in TD are very hard to defend against and can sometimes only be scouted when its already too late.
With that change it should weaken the allining without touching the HP of the MCV.
The cost decrease of the MCV has been debated for quite a while and its time to do the first step with a minor cost decrease by 300$.
Right now it is impossibile to build a second MCV without dying to a much larger army. Also replacing your dead MCV is rather not useful since it takes too much money.
Rocket Launcher:
Cost decrease from 1000$ to 800$
Despise of the fact that GDI is currently dominating the meta the Rocket Launcher is a unit that needs a bit adjustment.
Nod´s early game is nothing compared to the current GDI one (which we try to weaken a bit see above) but Nod´s lategame is superior to that of GDI to the fact that GDI´s artillery is overpriced.
While the Nod artillery is a very cheap and strong unit overall we would rather try to help out GDI than weaken Nod´s tools.
With a cheaper artillery GDI might be able to have a few of them to snipe light vehicles in the back like Attack Bikes that are laying waste of Medium Tanks.
Apache Longbow:
Damage increase against None from 100% to 125%
The apache is currently the weakest Helicopter.
Its role is supposed to be not only anti air but also anti infantry which the apache doesnt fullfil.
Infantry survives shots due to the fact they go prone after the first salvo.
With an increase in damage against None we try to fight this issue.
https://resource.openra.net/maps/26108/
These ideas was made by ZxGanon, Anjew and Void.
I increased the Service Depot repair rate by 100%
APC:
Cost changed from 550$ to 700$
Health reduced by 10%
Damage against heavy armor from 35 to 30
reverting the other changes that have been done before
In the current release the APC is dominating.
It is pretty tanky, has a lot of speed, can transport infantry, does have an instant hit projectile, does good to decent damage against everything and has the ability to attack air.
On top of this list is the spammability of this unit with 550$ which makes this unit unrivaled.
Through the spammability and the speed it can even counter masses of infantry.
It also counters Light Tanks and even Medium Tanks.
GDI mirror has devolved into APC and rocket soldiers spam only.
To not danger the identity of the unit and fight the issues and cost increase and a slight nerf of its damage against heavy is suggested to stop the cheer spamm of this unit and helping the counters (heavy armored units) to hold better against them.
Also GDI units are supposed to be expensive strong. Currently it feels like a tanky Nod unit.
Engineer:
SabotageHPRemoval increase from 50% to 55%
This change shall help evolving Engineer capture strategies. Currently if you try to capture a building with 2 Engineers you can simply repair your building before the second engineer enters which causes the building to not switch it's owner since the building HP goes beyond 50%. With 55% engineer SabotageHPRemoval it should no longer be the case.
Service Depot:
Heal rate increase by 100%
The repair speed of Service Depot has been very slow for quite a while.
It takes a long time to repair tanks like Light Tanks.
TD is a very fast paced game and the current Repair Rate is too slow to compensate and players rather throw their damaged units into the fight instead of choosing the ability to healing them.
Even in RA the repair rate got increased where vehicles play a minor role.
MCV:
Speed nerf from 71 to 60
Cost reduction from 4000$ to 3400$ (but still same build duration)
The MCV with its current speed enables to many possibilites for allin strategies since it can be used to not only tank but also for crushing.
Allins on most of the current maps in TD are very hard to defend against and can sometimes only be scouted when its already too late.
With that change it should weaken the allining without touching the HP of the MCV.
The cost decrease of the MCV has been debated for quite a while and its time to do the first step with a minor cost decrease by 300$.
Right now it is impossibile to build a second MCV without dying to a much larger army. Also replacing your dead MCV is rather not useful since it takes too much money.
Rocket Launcher:
Cost decrease from 1000$ to 800$
Despise of the fact that GDI is currently dominating the meta the Rocket Launcher is a unit that needs a bit adjustment.
Nod´s early game is nothing compared to the current GDI one (which we try to weaken a bit see above) but Nod´s lategame is superior to that of GDI to the fact that GDI´s artillery is overpriced.
While the Nod artillery is a very cheap and strong unit overall we would rather try to help out GDI than weaken Nod´s tools.
With a cheaper artillery GDI might be able to have a few of them to snipe light vehicles in the back like Attack Bikes that are laying waste of Medium Tanks.
Apache Longbow:
Damage increase against None from 100% to 125%
The apache is currently the weakest Helicopter.
Its role is supposed to be not only anti air but also anti infantry which the apache doesnt fullfil.
Infantry survives shots due to the fact they go prone after the first salvo.
With an increase in damage against None we try to fight this issue.
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AoAGeneral1
- Posts: 597
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:11 pm
Gannon that's not really a productive comment.
We've got plenty of games from TDGL on the current release, and it looks like APCs are still over performing (It's hard to say though, because people are unlikely to be experimental in TDGL right now).
I'm planning on testing Mesacer's patch (since I like all the changes he made) within the next couple days. If they're interesting I'll post the replays.
Could you add a couple more maps Mesacer? In particular Matchpoint, since I believe APCs would be OP there even if they weren't over performing.
We've got plenty of games from TDGL on the current release, and it looks like APCs are still over performing (It's hard to say though, because people are unlikely to be experimental in TDGL right now).
I'm planning on testing Mesacer's patch (since I like all the changes he made) within the next couple days. If they're interesting I'll post the replays.
Could you add a couple more maps Mesacer? In particular Matchpoint, since I believe APCs would be OP there even if they weren't over performing.
The game has been more dead than ever lately (since i started playing it). I think we need to look for changes to make the game more fun to play.
Some more text around the changes
The APC is still a very strong unit, its versatile. If we compare it against Nods Mobile SAM which cost 600$.
It has more speed, more armor, can attack ground, can transport units.It as less attack range.
So i think there is room to increase the price for the APC.
@Orb
I will add more maps with the balance changes when I'm done with the changes for the Husk.
Will add it on the following maps:
Matchpoint
Deterring Democrazy
Twisted Ichor Wasteland
Antrax
Schwarzwald
Would need some suggestions on team game maps!
Light armored units:
Husk should only be alive a few seconds just for the visual.
TD currently offers a very harsh gameplay environment where you get punished already in the first seconds for not killing your opponents scouting vehicle.
If the opponents Light Vehicle finds its way into your base it can be used to block your refinery or warfactory (if you play GDI) which can already delay your eco and army count.
But the fact that after the destruction of the Light Vehicle it also leaves a Husk which can block you buildings further is a nightmare for most TD players.
With that change we try to fight snowballing in TD to help people recover from an early attack.
Also the possibility to take over a Light Vehicle is not an options since it doesnt pay of in most times (except with Stealth Tank).
Light-, Medium- and Mammoth Tanks are a more valuable capture.
Some more text around the changes
The APC is still a very strong unit, its versatile. If we compare it against Nods Mobile SAM which cost 600$.
It has more speed, more armor, can attack ground, can transport units.It as less attack range.
So i think there is room to increase the price for the APC.
@Orb
I will add more maps with the balance changes when I'm done with the changes for the Husk.
Will add it on the following maps:
Matchpoint
Deterring Democrazy
Twisted Ichor Wasteland
Antrax
Schwarzwald
Would need some suggestions on team game maps!
Light armored units:
Husk should only be alive a few seconds just for the visual.
TD currently offers a very harsh gameplay environment where you get punished already in the first seconds for not killing your opponents scouting vehicle.
If the opponents Light Vehicle finds its way into your base it can be used to block your refinery or warfactory (if you play GDI) which can already delay your eco and army count.
But the fact that after the destruction of the Light Vehicle it also leaves a Husk which can block you buildings further is a nightmare for most TD players.
With that change we try to fight snowballing in TD to help people recover from an early attack.
Also the possibility to take over a Light Vehicle is not an options since it doesnt pay of in most times (except with Stealth Tank).
Light-, Medium- and Mammoth Tanks are a more valuable capture.
Some more maps updated, and also the changes to the Husk for light units.
Antrax: https://resource.openra.net/maps/26165/
Badland Ridges: https://resource.openra.net/maps/26166/
Matchpoint: https://resource.openra.net/maps/26167/
Schwarzwald: https://resource.openra.net/maps/26168/
Twisted Ichor Wasteland: https://resource.openra.net/maps/26169/
Antrax: https://resource.openra.net/maps/26165/
Badland Ridges: https://resource.openra.net/maps/26166/
Matchpoint: https://resource.openra.net/maps/26167/
Schwarzwald: https://resource.openra.net/maps/26168/
Twisted Ichor Wasteland: https://resource.openra.net/maps/26169/
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AoAGeneral1
- Posts: 597
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:11 pm
There are some exceptions to the husks in close call games where capturing a husk of those kinds can make a difference. (All be it rare.)
The husks also provides cover for infantry if a player uses a large army of them and gets hit by artillery units which causes the light vehicles to block themselves off. If however this causes players frustration levels in terms of trying to move light vehicles out of the wreckage then I can understand that more. But it does provide cover for infantry.
Im not convinced on the APC price adjustment. The few games played with Borgmo rendered the APC useless and a bad choice to build in any situation (Except vs air) due to both price and production speed. This also makes drop plays very expensive more so then its needed as these kinds of plays are already rare in itself.
If APCs are still outperforming then the solution is to change their projecile. Turn it into an actual flak bullet rather then instant fire as that is the biggest strength of the unit. This would also allow some accuracy adjustments such as the unit missing more and adjusting its AoE to allow to only really hit one unit at a time with a very small hit about 2 units. Maybe 3. No more then 4. The main unit would take about 80-90% of the damage while the 2nd unit about 10-20%. The 3rd if it hits about 2%. Inadvertently, this would also fix the complaints some people have about the APC being "To accurate" as this would cause the unit to miss air units a bit more.
Again, talking about the price being the issue renders this unit useless and is not a path I want to go. The path that is being looked at is harvester adjustments to render the refinery to support 2 harvesters at a time instead of 3. There has been some mention about the economy being fine but im not exactly ecstatic with builds favoring large number of harvesters being the best build choice to go.
The husks also provides cover for infantry if a player uses a large army of them and gets hit by artillery units which causes the light vehicles to block themselves off. If however this causes players frustration levels in terms of trying to move light vehicles out of the wreckage then I can understand that more. But it does provide cover for infantry.
Im not convinced on the APC price adjustment. The few games played with Borgmo rendered the APC useless and a bad choice to build in any situation (Except vs air) due to both price and production speed. This also makes drop plays very expensive more so then its needed as these kinds of plays are already rare in itself.
If APCs are still outperforming then the solution is to change their projecile. Turn it into an actual flak bullet rather then instant fire as that is the biggest strength of the unit. This would also allow some accuracy adjustments such as the unit missing more and adjusting its AoE to allow to only really hit one unit at a time with a very small hit about 2 units. Maybe 3. No more then 4. The main unit would take about 80-90% of the damage while the 2nd unit about 10-20%. The 3rd if it hits about 2%. Inadvertently, this would also fix the complaints some people have about the APC being "To accurate" as this would cause the unit to miss air units a bit more.
Again, talking about the price being the issue renders this unit useless and is not a path I want to go. The path that is being looked at is harvester adjustments to render the refinery to support 2 harvesters at a time instead of 3. There has been some mention about the economy being fine but im not exactly ecstatic with builds favoring large number of harvesters being the best build choice to go.
Husk
I don't see capturing a husk of light unit as useful, the engineer cost around the same as these units. It's better to build one more of these units.
Also I have only seen it once when someone used engineers to capture husk of vehicles. It was one of yours videos were you played Nod and brought some engineers to capture the enemies mammoths.
Other than that it's only used to save the mcv.
The infantry covering part is something we will have to take a concern on. Only way to tell if this will hurt infantry is by testing.
APC
The APC is the cheapest heavy armored unit in the game. It has more roles than any other unit in the game; transportation, anti air, ground attack.
In the GDI vs NOD matchup the APC is decimating Nod air.
Was this played on the balancing map or on live? Could you upload the replay?
I don't see capturing a husk of light unit as useful, the engineer cost around the same as these units. It's better to build one more of these units.
Also I have only seen it once when someone used engineers to capture husk of vehicles. It was one of yours videos were you played Nod and brought some engineers to capture the enemies mammoths.
Other than that it's only used to save the mcv.
The infantry covering part is something we will have to take a concern on. Only way to tell if this will hurt infantry is by testing.
APC
The APC is the cheapest heavy armored unit in the game. It has more roles than any other unit in the game; transportation, anti air, ground attack.
In the GDI vs NOD matchup the APC is decimating Nod air.
Was this played on the balancing map or on live? Could you upload the replay?