@AoA, I appreciate the work you do for TD.
With regards to adopting the RA mechanic of external engineer capture...
Engineers are already used in TD. I use them quite often and so do others. In addition to their expense, I think that the main reasons that they aren't used more are: they are vulnerable, they require micro, a good player can usually defend against them. Yes, two engis are a big investment at $1k, but being able e.g. to capture a cy, wf or ref early in a game shouldn't come cheap.
I'm sceptical that the proposed changes will achieve your stated goal of making engi captures more popular, at least in the long run. E.g. I'd rather pay the extra $500 for a second engi than have a 5-second delay.
I prefer the current CnC95 mechanic of instant internal capture over the RA mechanic of external capture. Others have said the same in game lobbies, though I expect that, due to the small size of the TD community, to our preference for a benevolent dictatorship over a quarrelsome democracy, and apathy / lack of engagement with balance, few will voice their views (I've played for over year and this is my first post).
TD balance thread
GDave wrote: ↑@AoA, I appreciate the work you do for TD.
With regards to adopting the RA mechanic of external engineer capture...
Engineers are already used in TD. I use them quite often and so do others. In addition to their expense, I think that the main reasons that they aren't used more are: they are vulnerable, they require micro, a good player can usually defend against them. Yes, two engis are a big investment at $1k, but being able e.g. to capture a cy, wf or ref early in a game shouldn't come cheap.
I'm sceptical that the proposed changes will achieve your stated goal of making engi captures more popular, at least in the long run. E.g. I'd rather pay the extra $500 for a second engi than have a 5-second delay.
I prefer the current CnC95 mechanic of instant internal capture over the RA mechanic of external capture. Others have said the same in game lobbies, though I expect that, due to the small size of the TD community, to our preference for a benevolent dictatorship over a quarrelsome democracy, and apathy / lack of engagement with balance, few will voice their views (I've played for over year and this is my first post).
I tend to agree with GDave on this. The external capture is not a mechanic I am a fan of, primarily because of how vulnerable your engineer will be while its capturing.
I, in fact, agreed with the idea of only one engineer for internal capture. This would really promote barracks first options to defend against cheese,
@GDave,
^^^
He had it right, I think engineers in TD are really valuable and not being ignored.
The thing is, TD has really small community, and to push for major changes is really hard to accept or a thing to be tolerated.
sometimes, the best update you do is to add nothing. The game might have some balance issue but engineers are not currently in a position to be questioned. Regardless of their mechanics, they are not causing trouble in TD balance.
^^^
He had it right, I think engineers in TD are really valuable and not being ignored.
The thing is, TD has really small community, and to push for major changes is really hard to accept or a thing to be tolerated.
sometimes, the best update you do is to add nothing. The game might have some balance issue but engineers are not currently in a position to be questioned. Regardless of their mechanics, they are not causing trouble in TD balance.
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[TMH] Mikeej
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 4:10 pm
Greetings folks !
I heared i could discuss here something over openra.
I dont talk much about the game or read every changes that are made i dont even read that... I just play the game on basis how i feel and how i like to play.
But then when i heared that Engis can disable and prevent you from selling your MCV or CY what ever.
Dont you think that you will be to much of the change? I mean changing the game in what ever you like despite the fact is this still TD or someproject for people who do what ever they like becuase they think it will balance the game... at the end for more better or fun gameplay. Ofcourse every1 wants this.
And i know you cant please everyone there are just to many people i know... But The game will only get harder and more difficult for some people.But you are changing the game playstyle for the people who have playing the game from the start game. Who played TD in there youth years and never play with stuff like this its not in the original game.
But by demand they must scout everybase at all cost or atleast the barracks or the helipads cuz in case they are building this super engineer to take out CYs... and if you fail to scout this your Cys will be lost and you get double fucked because you cant roll with it or sell it. You are telling us now how to play the game instead of us letting us play how we like.
And the idea off an engineer that can do this with Builder time Like in RA people are telling its RA like...or Disableing some vehicle is more Black Lotus like in Generals it seems that an actually an Engineer are suppose to be doing more in TD for what ? I mean to make the game harder more hardcore but would it be more fun then we allready have. I love this game for real because its TD i mean fock TD i played this game When i was 12.
I think this kind of stuff should be in maps that ARE Created by the players itself and not in the game itsself becuase in my opinion it doesnt belong in TD.
well thats my opinion anyways....
I heared i could discuss here something over openra.
I dont talk much about the game or read every changes that are made i dont even read that... I just play the game on basis how i feel and how i like to play.
But then when i heared that Engis can disable and prevent you from selling your MCV or CY what ever.
Dont you think that you will be to much of the change? I mean changing the game in what ever you like despite the fact is this still TD or someproject for people who do what ever they like becuase they think it will balance the game... at the end for more better or fun gameplay. Ofcourse every1 wants this.
And i know you cant please everyone there are just to many people i know... But The game will only get harder and more difficult for some people.But you are changing the game playstyle for the people who have playing the game from the start game. Who played TD in there youth years and never play with stuff like this its not in the original game.
But by demand they must scout everybase at all cost or atleast the barracks or the helipads cuz in case they are building this super engineer to take out CYs... and if you fail to scout this your Cys will be lost and you get double fucked because you cant roll with it or sell it. You are telling us now how to play the game instead of us letting us play how we like.
And the idea off an engineer that can do this with Builder time Like in RA people are telling its RA like...or Disableing some vehicle is more Black Lotus like in Generals it seems that an actually an Engineer are suppose to be doing more in TD for what ? I mean to make the game harder more hardcore but would it be more fun then we allready have. I love this game for real because its TD i mean fock TD i played this game When i was 12.
I think this kind of stuff should be in maps that ARE Created by the players itself and not in the game itsself becuase in my opinion it doesnt belong in TD.
well thats my opinion anyways....
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AoAGeneral1
- Posts: 597
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:11 pm
@Gdave:
Im a little confused. You say it isn't often used against good players which is what one of the reasons the changes goes towards. As far as investments go it isn't (as of right now) a 1000$ investment its a 1600$ for GDI. (Nod its 1750$). Due to the APC and Chinook. Rarely does running them across the field work if at all. So it isn't cheap anyways. The changes allows for a cheap investment that would still cost 1050$ (1250$ for Nod).
@anjew:
Originally I wanted a single internal capture mechanic but some discussions with the devs suggested the capture logic is to fast. A timer of 5 seconds was advised instead (While I still think its a little to fast I would prefer 7). Using two engineers is a bit insane imo.
@Assist:
Engineers risk vs reward is not good. Losing one engineer out of 2 means you cant capture anything. The biggest problem is easy to stop. To easy.
@Mikeej:
Scouting is an important piece in any RTS game. Currently right now people select MCV only game modes which means scouting is very hard to do. Try light support and see how scouting works then.
Other notes:
As far as the mechanic itself is I need some more feedback. This is a good start and may end up being pulled.
Currently:
- MCV packs up. Engineer capture denied. down 1600$. GG.
- structure is sold. Engineer capture is denied. down 1600$. player who sold a ref only loses 1500$ (Unless it held money in the bank) might have lost more. Still gained a harv over you. Hard to come back.
- Engineer capture prevention/accidents. Infantry shoot structures and kills engineer walking into building. (IE: You can force fire on your own structures to kill engineers).
What it would do:
- Prevent a lot of the above. (Plus minimal investment loss)
- Prevent early airstrip/factory rush builds that currently dominate the games and trumps other build orders.
As mentioned these are good feedbacks but there are other points and importances to keep in mind. Please give feedback on these comments. I will put the engineer logic on hold once more feedback comes in.
Im a little confused. You say it isn't often used against good players which is what one of the reasons the changes goes towards. As far as investments go it isn't (as of right now) a 1000$ investment its a 1600$ for GDI. (Nod its 1750$). Due to the APC and Chinook. Rarely does running them across the field work if at all. So it isn't cheap anyways. The changes allows for a cheap investment that would still cost 1050$ (1250$ for Nod).
@anjew:
Originally I wanted a single internal capture mechanic but some discussions with the devs suggested the capture logic is to fast. A timer of 5 seconds was advised instead (While I still think its a little to fast I would prefer 7). Using two engineers is a bit insane imo.
@Assist:
Engineers risk vs reward is not good. Losing one engineer out of 2 means you cant capture anything. The biggest problem is easy to stop. To easy.
@Mikeej:
Scouting is an important piece in any RTS game. Currently right now people select MCV only game modes which means scouting is very hard to do. Try light support and see how scouting works then.
Other notes:
As far as the mechanic itself is I need some more feedback. This is a good start and may end up being pulled.
Currently:
- MCV packs up. Engineer capture denied. down 1600$. GG.
- structure is sold. Engineer capture is denied. down 1600$. player who sold a ref only loses 1500$ (Unless it held money in the bank) might have lost more. Still gained a harv over you. Hard to come back.
- Engineer capture prevention/accidents. Infantry shoot structures and kills engineer walking into building. (IE: You can force fire on your own structures to kill engineers).
What it would do:
- Prevent a lot of the above. (Plus minimal investment loss)
- Prevent early airstrip/factory rush builds that currently dominate the games and trumps other build orders.
As mentioned these are good feedbacks but there are other points and importances to keep in mind. Please give feedback on these comments. I will put the engineer logic on hold once more feedback comes in.
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AoAGeneral1
- Posts: 597
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:11 pm
Add detection to temple of Nod.
artillery minimum range increase from 2c896 to 3c0.
mammoth tank HP increase from 800 to 870.
ion time increase from 3:00 to 4:30.
nuke timer from 5 to 6.
nuke damage spread fallout increased from 1000, 368, 135, 50, 18, 7, 0
to 1000, 700, 500, 300, 150, 50, 0.
nuke spread damage increased from 100 to 110. (First spread modifier)
a10 timer increased from 3:30 to 4:00.
MSAM HP from 120 to 180.
Commando weapon range increased from 6c0 to 8c0.
Commando weapon projectile speed increased from 1c682 to 5c682.
Commando price increase from 1000 to 2000.
Commando build time increased from 24 to 32.
Husks interval timer increased from 2 to 6.
Bike damage increase from 30 to 31.
Chem damage vs none reduced from 100 to 70.
Chem damage vs armor increased from 50 to 75.
Grenadier accuracy reduced from 213 to 813. (Makes them miss a lot more).
Flamer damage vs armor reduced from 20 to 10. (Flame infantry)
Flamer damage vs none increased from 100 to 110. (Flame infantry.)
Harv build timer increase from 24 to 27.
Harvester HP increase from 600 to 625.
Refinery power reduced from 50 to 40.
Refinery sell no longer refunds.
Refinery tiberium hold reduced from 2000 to 700.
Silo hold increase from 2000 to 3000.
AGT HP from 600 to 550.
Light Tank price reduced from 700 to 650.
Visceroid spawn reduce from 10 to 5.
Increase all building HP by 100.
Gun turret HP increase from 400 to 410.
Starting units adjusted.
MCV build time decreased from 1:36 to 1:00.
Engineer HP increase from 25 to 30.
APC HP increase from 210 to 215.
APC Damage vs light decreased from 105 to 100.
APC cost decreased from 600 to 550.
Samsite range increased from 8c0 to 12c0.
Samsite spread damage decreased from 682 to 128.
Samsite range limit increased from 9c614 to 15co.
Samsite reveal shroud decreased from 8c0 to 6c0.
Samsite now fires two shots at a time.
Recon Bike HP decreased from 120 to 110.
Airstrip/Weapon Factory power increased from 30 to 50.
Communication Center power increased from 40 to 50.
APC movement speed increased from 128 to 132.
MRLS range reduced from 12c0 to 11c0.
MRLS damage vs none reduced from 35 to 25.
artillery minimum range increase from 2c896 to 3c0.
mammoth tank HP increase from 800 to 870.
ion time increase from 3:00 to 4:30.
nuke timer from 5 to 6.
nuke damage spread fallout increased from 1000, 368, 135, 50, 18, 7, 0
to 1000, 700, 500, 300, 150, 50, 0.
nuke spread damage increased from 100 to 110. (First spread modifier)
a10 timer increased from 3:30 to 4:00.
MSAM HP from 120 to 180.
Commando weapon range increased from 6c0 to 8c0.
Commando weapon projectile speed increased from 1c682 to 5c682.
Commando price increase from 1000 to 2000.
Commando build time increased from 24 to 32.
Husks interval timer increased from 2 to 6.
Bike damage increase from 30 to 31.
Chem damage vs none reduced from 100 to 70.
Chem damage vs armor increased from 50 to 75.
Grenadier accuracy reduced from 213 to 813. (Makes them miss a lot more).
Flamer damage vs armor reduced from 20 to 10. (Flame infantry)
Flamer damage vs none increased from 100 to 110. (Flame infantry.)
Harv build timer increase from 24 to 27.
Harvester HP increase from 600 to 625.
Refinery power reduced from 50 to 40.
Refinery sell no longer refunds.
Refinery tiberium hold reduced from 2000 to 700.
Silo hold increase from 2000 to 3000.
AGT HP from 600 to 550.
Light Tank price reduced from 700 to 650.
Visceroid spawn reduce from 10 to 5.
Increase all building HP by 100.
Gun turret HP increase from 400 to 410.
Starting units adjusted.
MCV build time decreased from 1:36 to 1:00.
Engineer HP increase from 25 to 30.
APC HP increase from 210 to 215.
APC Damage vs light decreased from 105 to 100.
APC cost decreased from 600 to 550.
Samsite range increased from 8c0 to 12c0.
Samsite spread damage decreased from 682 to 128.
Samsite range limit increased from 9c614 to 15co.
Samsite reveal shroud decreased from 8c0 to 6c0.
Samsite now fires two shots at a time.
Recon Bike HP decreased from 120 to 110.
Airstrip/Weapon Factory power increased from 30 to 50.
Communication Center power increased from 40 to 50.
APC movement speed increased from 128 to 132.
MRLS range reduced from 12c0 to 11c0.
MRLS damage vs none reduced from 35 to 25.
Last edited by AoAGeneral1 on Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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[TMH] Mikeej
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 4:10 pm
AoA i didnt say scouting shouldnt be in RTS...lol?
You are making scouting more important then it is allready.
Like your argument about ztartibg with light units.
I mean people play withput light units and with mcv only is because we like how the game is played on these settings. Easy but simple and fun.
You are making people work for the game by insisting we should do more scouting otherwise our mcv is fucked by this super enigneer
You know what makes a good player and what makes a player a bad player ?
The idea of making scouting more important than it is now.
You are making the game hard with those extra mechianics that shouldnt be in TD
You know the tactics you can do with nukes and ur super engineer ? Mcvs will be dropping by flies if you cant stop this your fucked.
People will buy engineers more often them they allready have.
Or you should disbale mcvs like how TD are suppose to be with out getting cy getting nuked away by 1 hit if you cant roll or sell ur mcv will be destroyed. More then they allready are and you wanna stop moving them? If hey are deployed by this new mechanic they are fucked. This is what you are doing with the super enigneer and i think its bad.
Yes scouting ahould be in any rts cuz you.need to counter ur enemys by knowing what they are doing.
But scouting is on a low profile because if you can make an decent army and with some micro and macro you should handle urself without scouting.
That is thinga that you are destroying by this super enigneer.
Micro is getting far ahead of the game that we are playing this is not a new modern RTS you cant just change the micro of the game becuase you think it would balance the game.
You.make it more hardcore harder for players to play as you are demanding new players to scout you otherwise ur fucked and not for new players the same counts for me.
Micro management aint so high in this game wich makes him perfect for most players becuase we are not all robots most people are playing for fun now let me ask you if you are playing TD dony know how long you play this game but do you really think the game would be better then it is now or before ?
You are making scouting more important then it is allready.
Like your argument about ztartibg with light units.
I mean people play withput light units and with mcv only is because we like how the game is played on these settings. Easy but simple and fun.
You are making people work for the game by insisting we should do more scouting otherwise our mcv is fucked by this super enigneer
You know what makes a good player and what makes a player a bad player ?
The idea of making scouting more important than it is now.
You are making the game hard with those extra mechianics that shouldnt be in TD
You know the tactics you can do with nukes and ur super engineer ? Mcvs will be dropping by flies if you cant stop this your fucked.
People will buy engineers more often them they allready have.
Or you should disbale mcvs like how TD are suppose to be with out getting cy getting nuked away by 1 hit if you cant roll or sell ur mcv will be destroyed. More then they allready are and you wanna stop moving them? If hey are deployed by this new mechanic they are fucked. This is what you are doing with the super enigneer and i think its bad.
Yes scouting ahould be in any rts cuz you.need to counter ur enemys by knowing what they are doing.
But scouting is on a low profile because if you can make an decent army and with some micro and macro you should handle urself without scouting.
That is thinga that you are destroying by this super enigneer.
Micro is getting far ahead of the game that we are playing this is not a new modern RTS you cant just change the micro of the game becuase you think it would balance the game.
You.make it more hardcore harder for players to play as you are demanding new players to scout you otherwise ur fucked and not for new players the same counts for me.
Micro management aint so high in this game wich makes him perfect for most players becuase we are not all robots most people are playing for fun now let me ask you if you are playing TD dony know how long you play this game but do you really think the game would be better then it is now or before ?
This is very long reply, if admins feel its better to be moved to a new topic, plz feel free to do so. If you dont want reading then skip all the way dawn till you find this --> =======================================================================
I would like from moderators and admins to have a look at the "engineer" in Tiberian Sun and try to enable the eng unit to be more effective in defense and attack in TD.
Not saying to adopt TS style for TD, but I'm trying to show you what improvements might be interesting to enable the engineer unit the way it is without altering its mechanic.
I used to play Tiberian Sun a lot, where 1 engineer could save you from losing the game.
Engineers also play important rule in attacking, whether early game or late game. That's the beauty in Engs mechanics in TS.
It is one of those skills that distinguish between the good players and the excellent players.
So, here is how the engs work in TS.
Three engineers are needed to capture a building. One engineer gives u instant fix to your building. Cost you 500 dollars. extremely vulnerable and somewhat slow. But still a must have unit for defense (at least one engineer in base,, no engineer in a base is considered noobish). Also engineer attack can be a game changer if used correctly.
Defense:
An engineer fix-building is a central piece of defense in Tiberian Sun, and requires some practice and skill to repair the building just in the right time, or sometimes for immediately recapturing a building falling to an eng rush.
Engineer repair-structure can be used regardless of type of units attacking you, except for c4 implantation. You could use it to save your building from all types of air strike, tanks, infs, artillaries and even from engineers.
Which buildings you want to save with eng in TS?
usually the followings;
1.Refineries
2.WF
3.CY
4.super-weapons
the placement of engineers should be adjacent to your vital buildings, ideally 1 to 3 engineers per vital building but......
This is in an ideal world, but in reality, most of the time you can't afford doing that because its costy and you need money for other important things. The average players usually tries to put 1 to 2 eng per vital building while the pro might have only 2 engineers in the whole base. why is that? The pro has a better control with eng, so instead of using his fortune in engs, he would for example use 1 engineer to cover two buildings at a time (more into that later)
Now it is not a simple thing to do. Put it like this;
A. noobs are unable to use the engineer fix-structure, because either
1. they can't time it correctly.
2. bad placement of buildings that result in engineer walking for longer time
3.putting engineer in line of fire
4. overwhelmed by an attack and having difficulty in coordinating commands.
B. Average players would usually able to fix the building, but are not able to do so when receiving complicated attack. here is why they might fail to fix the building:
1. incorrect walking direction of engineer (this is important for weapons that have multiple cell damage like bombers, flames, chemical missile, ...etc) so the engineer would be ordered to walk towards the building, but if not taking into account the collateral cells damaged which can kill him instantly before reaching the building or when trying to get into the building. (so it is useful to anticipate which cells are safe to walk to get the building repaired, hence only the pros are able to do it correctly)
2. engineer has no one to protect him. I give few examples, if there is no sam in base, then the enemy might use heli to kill all engs in base before air raids. If there is no sensor, a devil would be used to squish all engineers before an attack. If there is poor anti-inf defense, light inf are used to clear the base from engs then to follow or combine that with heavy attack. Usually a base has 3 to 4 eng, so its not that hard to eliminate engs if base lacking proper defense (well even if there was 10 engineers in base, they are still extremely vulnerable.)
3. improper combo or mixture of defense units that will make you lose the building regardless of engineer. The engineer role here is merely to delay the attacking unit from attacking your next vital structure, which is sometimes useful. So example in TS, you need 3 titans and an eng to save your refinery from a pro or skilled dizz attack (called 1 shot-destroy), otherwise you will lose the refinery regardless. Maybe many here are not familiar with units so an RA equivalent I would say apc with flame throwers attack. so they probably will get the refinery in the first round of fire. so if you place a turret, you know that wont help you, but if u place a pillbox then it will most likely save you. not only that, if say (let's pretend) this attack will result in your refinery getting down with the first round, then an engineer behind the refinery might save the building if sent just before it crumbles. of course most likely he will die in RA because flame weapon damage multiple cells. But I hope you got what am trying to say, So a pillbox + an engineer combo will save your refinery and the attack will fail. if you couldn't buy pillbox, an engineer will save you from first round but obviously not the second round. Still you might need that delay to get units/defense/..etc.
4. setting engineers to automatically repair the damaged buildings. This is possible in TS, but not really as effective as the manual control of eng. The engineers would wait to the building to get to red bar (you need to set which buildings are they assigned to) then fix it without the need to manually to order them to do so. This might be useful when you are busy somewhere else, its better than nothing. But waiting for red bar is risky and your eng might not be able to fix it because of heavy firing and your building already disappeared by the time the eng reach it.
Now lets do the pro engineer defense:
1. the pro player will not spend a fortune in engineers surrounding the vital structures, instead he place the buildings in such a way that enable an engineer to cover two buildings a time and with proper protection. Note they don't just place the buildings shoulder to shoulder. what I mean is that a reasonable distance that is not to close nor too far is 2 to 3 cells between the WF and CY, and they have to be placed diagonally so enemy superweapns don't just destroy both WF and CY together. The engineer is correctly positioned in between to have equal distance and is covered by some defense. Thus, you saved money and make it difficult to enemy to reach your eng. A proper defense doesn't have to be bunkering with lots of defense units/structures. You have to be reasonable with defense as well.
2. The pro player is able to time the eng repair so that he doesn't lose either the structure nor getting his eng killed. So for example, in TS you want to save your structure from airstrike then you would command the engineer to fix the building just before the air units release their load. While for a say ground attack, you want to wait till red bar then order to fix. Here I want to give example from Openra that I found it useful in terms of timing when to repair the structure. A classic example is when you are attacked by artillaries. Say now you are in position where the enemy artilleries have the range and the view to get your CY, and you can't see them. What I do usually I have an engineer at the back. I would unpack the CY when it just gets red, then redeploy it just 5/6 cells further, and repair it with engineer. What would happen is the enemy thinks he almost got my CY and only one more round of fire to go. Most of players would try to chase my red-barred CY with either air or pushing his artilleries to the front. They think that this worth losing some helis/arts to my line of defense in exchange for CY. But then he'll lose those units and I still have my CY fully repaired. Also other times I use the eng to repair after air raids or v2 missile. The same concept I can apply it to my allies, when my allies is overwhelmed with artilleries and I feel that the enemy will target his CY soon, I would place bax behind his CY and get an eng ready for the redeployment. Having said that, the engineer repairing the building in RA is much less flexible than in TS. The engineer here has to get to the central cell to get the building repaired. The engineer is completely unsafe when he enters the structure. While in TS, once the engineer inside the building, he is safe from most types of weapons. Its like only bombers, flame and sonic zap that can get through the building and kill your engineer before repairing it. Hence you need the correct angle to get into the building to avoid these types of weapon. However, in OpenRA, even light infantry can shoot through the building and get your engineer which is really frustrating. I am not sure if this was intended, but I find it more demanding in TD to give eng the ability to enter the building through any cell that is under the building and be safe from conventional weapons. Like right now, if I want to repair my CY while under fire from the rifle infantry, then the eng dies regardless. Not only this makes it extremely difficult to repair but also almost unworthy to capture enemy structure and impossible to get enemy CY.
Now let's move to the Eng Attack
Engineer attack can be used both as an early game or late game attacks. Usually GDI players use engineer rush in early game while nod use it as late game attack.
The cost of GDI early game eng attack is 1500 for 3 engs + 800 for APC. The priority is to first capture a refinery then warf then CY. It is not wise to get the CY as a first target early in game with engineers in TS, unless you have no choice but to do so. Why is that? because in TS, you don't get your warf unless your eco is well established. TS players will do 3 refineries and even 4 refineries before getting warf. The first 5 minutes is all about inf skirmishes. Some will do 2 refineries then warf but this is difficult for most players. anyway, my point is if you get the CY early in the game, then your enemy with his well established eco, will spend all his money on units while you are spending it in both units and buildings and you already wasted like 2300 on eng attack. He will end up having huge army to attack you which may turns into a curse to you.
Rarely, but I have seen it done, a player may just decide to walk the engineers to the enemy base and sneak it from behind. This is extremely risky but sometimes successful as no one expect a walking eng attack.
How to counter early apc eng rush in TS? just like in openra, an apc with flame throwers depends on the element of surprise. You need to see it before coming. That's why scouting is vital to counter such an attacks.
Nod tend to use engineer rush as late game that usually slowly drain you out. Nod APC is unlocked after tech, and it travels underground. It also costs you 2300 to have an apc with 3 engs. because it is a late game feature, you can't simply pop out the apc in the middle of your enemy base. Usually there are defenses and unit which easily make you attack a complete failure. I'm not going to explain in details how to eng attack with nod, but put it simply like this, you need to be smart on how to fool your enemy. an example is a you send ground troops to enemy base to force your enemy to take all his troops to the frontier then you pop up the apc at the back of his base.
How to counter nod eng rush, usually you only need light infantries and one or two anti-inf turrets. Sometimes you will be forced to use airplanes + flame tanks as a counter to nod eng rush if your enemy is too good.
a typical Nod player tend to use eng attack a lot, two eng rushes per game is the minimum.
More about engineers in TS can be found in fan made manuals in the following links which I highly recommend to have a look at it to have an in-depth understanding of engineers in the game. You could just use cntrl+F and search for the word "engineer" to make easier for yourself.
Here:
1. TS player nickname: Mole40k
Mole40k's 2013 guide:
http://mjryder.net/wordpress/wp-content ... k-2013.pdf
2. TS player nickname: Kaizen
KAIZEN'S 2016 TIBERIAN SUN GUIDE
http://dillonmiles12345.wixsite.com/201 ... -tips-2016
http://dillonmiles12345.wixsite.com/201 ... cks-part-2
Both players can be reached in the CNCNET forums.
========================================================================
NOW lets talk about TD eng problem!
Yes, the engineer needs to walk through the building to get to the central cell in order to repair/capture it.
But this has 2 problems.............Say instead of 2 engineers, you decided to send 10 engineers to capture this undefended warf. There are only 3 light infantries below it like 2 cells further. What do you think guys? Can you use the 10 eng to get the war factory if only defended by 3 light infs? you might think yes. Maybe the inf will mange to kill two engineers before entering the building, but once the rest (8 left) enters then the building, it is yours, right? NOT REALLY, YOU MIGHT BE WRONG. Believe it or not! 3 inf could instantly kill your 8 engineers in one round if they all entered the same time, and then your engs are completely wasted. Yes only 1-shot and all the 8 dies. This is because all engs if entered the same time, they will stack on top over the central point of the central cell, which means they could potentially get killed in 1 shot regardless of their numbers. Not only that, all my ambush engineer rush failed in TD because of this. (I know I'm not a pro) What's the point of sneaking the engineer behind the enemy line then ending up in the enemy line of fire because he has to walk through the building for another few cells to capture it and the enemy units start targeting him even if is walking inside the building. An Eng can take really very little to die, maybe with only one shot by almost any unit and when they are inside the building they will die all together with one shot.!
The requirement of walking 2 cells inside the building before capturing it is what makes the engineer attack most likely, a failure. In TS its like only one cell to walk inside the building, and still you are able to cancel the repair or cancel the capture of building by retracting your engs. They do not count as 1 unit when entering a building in terms of units shooting them. In TD, if you kill one eng, the others die along with him regardless of their numbers when they reach the 2nd cell.
So in short, Finding a way in how to enable the engineer units to be used in defense and attack more effectively is better than altering the mechanism of engineers to resemble what we have in RA. In RA, its like the only worth structure to be used for engineer attack is the CY and have little role in defense. Most use engineer to merely capture the oil derricks, otherwise you will rarely see the engineer being used to be honest if the map lacks oil derricks. Its like we maybe use the engineer to capture enemy CY if the map has oil derricks. While in TS, the engineer unit is utilized for a variety of purposes and used by all players. Of course TS is not TD, but the idea here is to show the opportunity and the potential for the engineer unit in TD. That is only my humble analysis on the Eng topic. In the end, its up to the moderators who have the right to decide what best is for the game after trial/error experiments.
I would like from moderators and admins to have a look at the "engineer" in Tiberian Sun and try to enable the eng unit to be more effective in defense and attack in TD.
Not saying to adopt TS style for TD, but I'm trying to show you what improvements might be interesting to enable the engineer unit the way it is without altering its mechanic.
I used to play Tiberian Sun a lot, where 1 engineer could save you from losing the game.
Engineers also play important rule in attacking, whether early game or late game. That's the beauty in Engs mechanics in TS.
It is one of those skills that distinguish between the good players and the excellent players.
So, here is how the engs work in TS.
Three engineers are needed to capture a building. One engineer gives u instant fix to your building. Cost you 500 dollars. extremely vulnerable and somewhat slow. But still a must have unit for defense (at least one engineer in base,, no engineer in a base is considered noobish). Also engineer attack can be a game changer if used correctly.
Defense:
An engineer fix-building is a central piece of defense in Tiberian Sun, and requires some practice and skill to repair the building just in the right time, or sometimes for immediately recapturing a building falling to an eng rush.
Engineer repair-structure can be used regardless of type of units attacking you, except for c4 implantation. You could use it to save your building from all types of air strike, tanks, infs, artillaries and even from engineers.
Which buildings you want to save with eng in TS?
usually the followings;
1.Refineries
2.WF
3.CY
4.super-weapons
the placement of engineers should be adjacent to your vital buildings, ideally 1 to 3 engineers per vital building but......
This is in an ideal world, but in reality, most of the time you can't afford doing that because its costy and you need money for other important things. The average players usually tries to put 1 to 2 eng per vital building while the pro might have only 2 engineers in the whole base. why is that? The pro has a better control with eng, so instead of using his fortune in engs, he would for example use 1 engineer to cover two buildings at a time (more into that later)
Now it is not a simple thing to do. Put it like this;
A. noobs are unable to use the engineer fix-structure, because either
1. they can't time it correctly.
2. bad placement of buildings that result in engineer walking for longer time
3.putting engineer in line of fire
4. overwhelmed by an attack and having difficulty in coordinating commands.
B. Average players would usually able to fix the building, but are not able to do so when receiving complicated attack. here is why they might fail to fix the building:
1. incorrect walking direction of engineer (this is important for weapons that have multiple cell damage like bombers, flames, chemical missile, ...etc) so the engineer would be ordered to walk towards the building, but if not taking into account the collateral cells damaged which can kill him instantly before reaching the building or when trying to get into the building. (so it is useful to anticipate which cells are safe to walk to get the building repaired, hence only the pros are able to do it correctly)
2. engineer has no one to protect him. I give few examples, if there is no sam in base, then the enemy might use heli to kill all engs in base before air raids. If there is no sensor, a devil would be used to squish all engineers before an attack. If there is poor anti-inf defense, light inf are used to clear the base from engs then to follow or combine that with heavy attack. Usually a base has 3 to 4 eng, so its not that hard to eliminate engs if base lacking proper defense (well even if there was 10 engineers in base, they are still extremely vulnerable.)
3. improper combo or mixture of defense units that will make you lose the building regardless of engineer. The engineer role here is merely to delay the attacking unit from attacking your next vital structure, which is sometimes useful. So example in TS, you need 3 titans and an eng to save your refinery from a pro or skilled dizz attack (called 1 shot-destroy), otherwise you will lose the refinery regardless. Maybe many here are not familiar with units so an RA equivalent I would say apc with flame throwers attack. so they probably will get the refinery in the first round of fire. so if you place a turret, you know that wont help you, but if u place a pillbox then it will most likely save you. not only that, if say (let's pretend) this attack will result in your refinery getting down with the first round, then an engineer behind the refinery might save the building if sent just before it crumbles. of course most likely he will die in RA because flame weapon damage multiple cells. But I hope you got what am trying to say, So a pillbox + an engineer combo will save your refinery and the attack will fail. if you couldn't buy pillbox, an engineer will save you from first round but obviously not the second round. Still you might need that delay to get units/defense/..etc.
4. setting engineers to automatically repair the damaged buildings. This is possible in TS, but not really as effective as the manual control of eng. The engineers would wait to the building to get to red bar (you need to set which buildings are they assigned to) then fix it without the need to manually to order them to do so. This might be useful when you are busy somewhere else, its better than nothing. But waiting for red bar is risky and your eng might not be able to fix it because of heavy firing and your building already disappeared by the time the eng reach it.
Now lets do the pro engineer defense:
1. the pro player will not spend a fortune in engineers surrounding the vital structures, instead he place the buildings in such a way that enable an engineer to cover two buildings a time and with proper protection. Note they don't just place the buildings shoulder to shoulder. what I mean is that a reasonable distance that is not to close nor too far is 2 to 3 cells between the WF and CY, and they have to be placed diagonally so enemy superweapns don't just destroy both WF and CY together. The engineer is correctly positioned in between to have equal distance and is covered by some defense. Thus, you saved money and make it difficult to enemy to reach your eng. A proper defense doesn't have to be bunkering with lots of defense units/structures. You have to be reasonable with defense as well.
2. The pro player is able to time the eng repair so that he doesn't lose either the structure nor getting his eng killed. So for example, in TS you want to save your structure from airstrike then you would command the engineer to fix the building just before the air units release their load. While for a say ground attack, you want to wait till red bar then order to fix. Here I want to give example from Openra that I found it useful in terms of timing when to repair the structure. A classic example is when you are attacked by artillaries. Say now you are in position where the enemy artilleries have the range and the view to get your CY, and you can't see them. What I do usually I have an engineer at the back. I would unpack the CY when it just gets red, then redeploy it just 5/6 cells further, and repair it with engineer. What would happen is the enemy thinks he almost got my CY and only one more round of fire to go. Most of players would try to chase my red-barred CY with either air or pushing his artilleries to the front. They think that this worth losing some helis/arts to my line of defense in exchange for CY. But then he'll lose those units and I still have my CY fully repaired. Also other times I use the eng to repair after air raids or v2 missile. The same concept I can apply it to my allies, when my allies is overwhelmed with artilleries and I feel that the enemy will target his CY soon, I would place bax behind his CY and get an eng ready for the redeployment. Having said that, the engineer repairing the building in RA is much less flexible than in TS. The engineer here has to get to the central cell to get the building repaired. The engineer is completely unsafe when he enters the structure. While in TS, once the engineer inside the building, he is safe from most types of weapons. Its like only bombers, flame and sonic zap that can get through the building and kill your engineer before repairing it. Hence you need the correct angle to get into the building to avoid these types of weapon. However, in OpenRA, even light infantry can shoot through the building and get your engineer which is really frustrating. I am not sure if this was intended, but I find it more demanding in TD to give eng the ability to enter the building through any cell that is under the building and be safe from conventional weapons. Like right now, if I want to repair my CY while under fire from the rifle infantry, then the eng dies regardless. Not only this makes it extremely difficult to repair but also almost unworthy to capture enemy structure and impossible to get enemy CY.
Now let's move to the Eng Attack
Engineer attack can be used both as an early game or late game attacks. Usually GDI players use engineer rush in early game while nod use it as late game attack.
The cost of GDI early game eng attack is 1500 for 3 engs + 800 for APC. The priority is to first capture a refinery then warf then CY. It is not wise to get the CY as a first target early in game with engineers in TS, unless you have no choice but to do so. Why is that? because in TS, you don't get your warf unless your eco is well established. TS players will do 3 refineries and even 4 refineries before getting warf. The first 5 minutes is all about inf skirmishes. Some will do 2 refineries then warf but this is difficult for most players. anyway, my point is if you get the CY early in the game, then your enemy with his well established eco, will spend all his money on units while you are spending it in both units and buildings and you already wasted like 2300 on eng attack. He will end up having huge army to attack you which may turns into a curse to you.
Rarely, but I have seen it done, a player may just decide to walk the engineers to the enemy base and sneak it from behind. This is extremely risky but sometimes successful as no one expect a walking eng attack.
How to counter early apc eng rush in TS? just like in openra, an apc with flame throwers depends on the element of surprise. You need to see it before coming. That's why scouting is vital to counter such an attacks.
Nod tend to use engineer rush as late game that usually slowly drain you out. Nod APC is unlocked after tech, and it travels underground. It also costs you 2300 to have an apc with 3 engs. because it is a late game feature, you can't simply pop out the apc in the middle of your enemy base. Usually there are defenses and unit which easily make you attack a complete failure. I'm not going to explain in details how to eng attack with nod, but put it simply like this, you need to be smart on how to fool your enemy. an example is a you send ground troops to enemy base to force your enemy to take all his troops to the frontier then you pop up the apc at the back of his base.
How to counter nod eng rush, usually you only need light infantries and one or two anti-inf turrets. Sometimes you will be forced to use airplanes + flame tanks as a counter to nod eng rush if your enemy is too good.
a typical Nod player tend to use eng attack a lot, two eng rushes per game is the minimum.
More about engineers in TS can be found in fan made manuals in the following links which I highly recommend to have a look at it to have an in-depth understanding of engineers in the game. You could just use cntrl+F and search for the word "engineer" to make easier for yourself.
Here:
1. TS player nickname: Mole40k
Mole40k's 2013 guide:
http://mjryder.net/wordpress/wp-content ... k-2013.pdf
2. TS player nickname: Kaizen
KAIZEN'S 2016 TIBERIAN SUN GUIDE
http://dillonmiles12345.wixsite.com/201 ... -tips-2016
http://dillonmiles12345.wixsite.com/201 ... cks-part-2
Both players can be reached in the CNCNET forums.
========================================================================
NOW lets talk about TD eng problem!
Yes, the engineer needs to walk through the building to get to the central cell in order to repair/capture it.
But this has 2 problems.............Say instead of 2 engineers, you decided to send 10 engineers to capture this undefended warf. There are only 3 light infantries below it like 2 cells further. What do you think guys? Can you use the 10 eng to get the war factory if only defended by 3 light infs? you might think yes. Maybe the inf will mange to kill two engineers before entering the building, but once the rest (8 left) enters then the building, it is yours, right? NOT REALLY, YOU MIGHT BE WRONG. Believe it or not! 3 inf could instantly kill your 8 engineers in one round if they all entered the same time, and then your engs are completely wasted. Yes only 1-shot and all the 8 dies. This is because all engs if entered the same time, they will stack on top over the central point of the central cell, which means they could potentially get killed in 1 shot regardless of their numbers. Not only that, all my ambush engineer rush failed in TD because of this. (I know I'm not a pro) What's the point of sneaking the engineer behind the enemy line then ending up in the enemy line of fire because he has to walk through the building for another few cells to capture it and the enemy units start targeting him even if is walking inside the building. An Eng can take really very little to die, maybe with only one shot by almost any unit and when they are inside the building they will die all together with one shot.!
The requirement of walking 2 cells inside the building before capturing it is what makes the engineer attack most likely, a failure. In TS its like only one cell to walk inside the building, and still you are able to cancel the repair or cancel the capture of building by retracting your engs. They do not count as 1 unit when entering a building in terms of units shooting them. In TD, if you kill one eng, the others die along with him regardless of their numbers when they reach the 2nd cell.
So in short, Finding a way in how to enable the engineer units to be used in defense and attack more effectively is better than altering the mechanism of engineers to resemble what we have in RA. In RA, its like the only worth structure to be used for engineer attack is the CY and have little role in defense. Most use engineer to merely capture the oil derricks, otherwise you will rarely see the engineer being used to be honest if the map lacks oil derricks. Its like we maybe use the engineer to capture enemy CY if the map has oil derricks. While in TS, the engineer unit is utilized for a variety of purposes and used by all players. Of course TS is not TD, but the idea here is to show the opportunity and the potential for the engineer unit in TD. That is only my humble analysis on the Eng topic. In the end, its up to the moderators who have the right to decide what best is for the game after trial/error experiments.
I agree with your concept regarding engineer use. TS is quite the example of how to incorporate engineers into the meta. I was never privy to the mechanics you describe however I did notice how essential engineers were to attack and defence.Assist wrote: ↑-snip-
Regarding your identification of problems, there is more than 2 and they are actually bugs.
The gif in this github issue shows 2 more bugs evident that make engineers use pointless.
https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/issues/8064
add on top an extra bug where un-deploying mid capture can cause you to lose engineers into an abyss
plus there is a github issue with the 1 cell capture
https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/issues/5183
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AoAGeneral1
- Posts: 597
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:11 pm
@Assist:
TS also didn't have the multi build queue as TD does. CNC95 neither did either so production of units was much slower in TS and CNC95 then in ORA TD now. Engineers looming about in the base would easily get picked off because of how fast units can come abound. Plus the fun of the airstrikes that would accidentally kill engineers.
The bugs of them getting killed/squashed entering a build is as anjew said a bug on the github ticket system. But it isn't just engineers but also commandos and tanya. I would also like to note if you drop your Chinook/APC near a commando he can snipe all the infantry at once as soon as they exit because of their 1 cell drop off.
@Mikeej:
Engineers can't be used to hold MCVs in place because of the nuke due to the engineer having a 5-7 second capture time. A nuke takes roughly 15-20 seconds to make its landing.
Im aware people play without light units and prefer MCV but in the games I play I like to be competitive and so do other players. I like to play with shroud. Some don't. If they don't like it they can find another game. (Some players ask to turn it off and often times I do. But if im playing serious expect shroud to be on.) Same goes with light units (In next release). Its not to be mean but thats my competitive side. I used to do it all the time in CNC95. (Even when CNC95 didn't have fog).
What makes a good player good is knowing how to counter the strategy. Bad players will lose games and become better (if they don't blind rage) and look through the replays. Thats the fun in the game. Players who want to just mess around and have fun often times have crates on, explore map on, MCV only, (Which btw I would like to see an option for no starting MCV but units only for 40v40 battles like in CNC95) and etc.
As far as micro/macro goes the max cap is about 30 APM in TD. That is extremely slow and its very rare I even go above 15 APM. (FiveAces often makes fun of me for it
). Im super slow in TD but I do decent because I know the counters and what my opponent thinks.
SIDE NOTE:
Im going to put a video here that shows an example. (Video is extremely old and even surprised I have it.) Its an example of the difference between just scouting and seeing a base to adapting and countering the enemy. This was back in the day when TvT had issues countering BCs.https://www.dropbox.com/s/6xa1nokiect5j ... 7.rar?dl=0
Other then that please check the revised balances above. Im also going to be adding the Obelisk power.
TS also didn't have the multi build queue as TD does. CNC95 neither did either so production of units was much slower in TS and CNC95 then in ORA TD now. Engineers looming about in the base would easily get picked off because of how fast units can come abound. Plus the fun of the airstrikes that would accidentally kill engineers.
The bugs of them getting killed/squashed entering a build is as anjew said a bug on the github ticket system. But it isn't just engineers but also commandos and tanya. I would also like to note if you drop your Chinook/APC near a commando he can snipe all the infantry at once as soon as they exit because of their 1 cell drop off.
@Mikeej:
Engineers can't be used to hold MCVs in place because of the nuke due to the engineer having a 5-7 second capture time. A nuke takes roughly 15-20 seconds to make its landing.
Im aware people play without light units and prefer MCV but in the games I play I like to be competitive and so do other players. I like to play with shroud. Some don't. If they don't like it they can find another game. (Some players ask to turn it off and often times I do. But if im playing serious expect shroud to be on.) Same goes with light units (In next release). Its not to be mean but thats my competitive side. I used to do it all the time in CNC95. (Even when CNC95 didn't have fog).
What makes a good player good is knowing how to counter the strategy. Bad players will lose games and become better (if they don't blind rage) and look through the replays. Thats the fun in the game. Players who want to just mess around and have fun often times have crates on, explore map on, MCV only, (Which btw I would like to see an option for no starting MCV but units only for 40v40 battles like in CNC95) and etc.
As far as micro/macro goes the max cap is about 30 APM in TD. That is extremely slow and its very rare I even go above 15 APM. (FiveAces often makes fun of me for it
). Im super slow in TD but I do decent because I know the counters and what my opponent thinks.SIDE NOTE:
Im going to put a video here that shows an example. (Video is extremely old and even surprised I have it.) Its an example of the difference between just scouting and seeing a base to adapting and countering the enemy. This was back in the day when TvT had issues countering BCs.https://www.dropbox.com/s/6xa1nokiect5j ... 7.rar?dl=0
Other then that please check the revised balances above. Im also going to be adding the Obelisk power.
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[TMH] Mikeej
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 4:10 pm
Yeah 1 Engineer can hold it 5-7 seconds but if you take 2 like we allready have you can nuke it either way...
But anyway lets move on
What im try to say is you change many aspects of the game only like you pointed out to play more competive matches sure why not...
but i do think this mechanic or what you ever you call it is to much of a change is toil but hey who am i... hehl i will leave it here just wanted give a opinion and will we see.. what happens time will tell..
But anyway lets move on
What im try to say is you change many aspects of the game only like you pointed out to play more competive matches sure why not...
but i do think this mechanic or what you ever you call it is to much of a change is toil but hey who am i... hehl i will leave it here just wanted give a opinion and will we see.. what happens time will tell..
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AoAGeneral1
- Posts: 597
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:11 pm
As mentioned check the revise.
Im actually going to be looking for specific players. If nothing changes after next release its possible the engineer topic will come up again. No comment was made on the price problem for engineer investments which leads me to think people are more frustrated with it in team games/unable to move MCV and feeling its unfair.
SIDE NOTE:
I will be putting in an Obelisk buff of power from 150 to 90. Since the Obelisk fix is on the next release milestone I can make the power adjustment ahead of time.
As for moving the obelisk around to a com center tech and etc I want to wait and see what the Obelisk looks like once fixed. But I can already saying having a 150 power Obelisk and needing an adv power plant every single time you want to have more then one Obelisk is insane.
Im actually going to be looking for specific players. If nothing changes after next release its possible the engineer topic will come up again. No comment was made on the price problem for engineer investments which leads me to think people are more frustrated with it in team games/unable to move MCV and feeling its unfair.
SIDE NOTE:
I will be putting in an Obelisk buff of power from 150 to 90. Since the Obelisk fix is on the next release milestone I can make the power adjustment ahead of time.
As for moving the obelisk around to a com center tech and etc I want to wait and see what the Obelisk looks like once fixed. But I can already saying having a 150 power Obelisk and needing an adv power plant every single time you want to have more then one Obelisk is insane.
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AoAGeneral1
- Posts: 597
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:11 pm
http://resource.openra.net/maps/18006/
Updated map.
Chinook speed/HP increase and harv has changed. Unload speed decreased.
Map preview of changes. (Engineers not reverted in map yet)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/uiaqlm764jd8n ... r.rar?dl=0
Updated map.
Chinook speed/HP increase and harv has changed. Unload speed decreased.
Map preview of changes. (Engineers not reverted in map yet)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/uiaqlm764jd8n ... r.rar?dl=0
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CampinJeff
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:01 am
Tried out the new map, I think -50 power is hardly noticeable, particularly because the ref power is dropped aswell.
Nod players when expanding can still go pp->ref->strip, (next tib field) pp->ref->strip, and so on. At this point I agree that tinkering with power settings is probably the best way to discourage players going straight for vehicle spam, but probably -60 <---> -70 instead of -50 due to Ref being -40.
Another way to encourage players (mentioned before in this thread) to build a barracks first over a WF is to make the oil derricks more beneficial, something like an engineer refund when capturing a neutral derrick. The current issue with taking derricks off the bat is that it:
1. puts you behind at least 12 seconds on the initial harvester
2. takes too long to refund the engineer AND barracks used to capture it, meaning you won't have enough funds to churn out as many harvesters as your opponent
Having refundable engineers puts the barracks first player somewhat on par with economy compared to somebody going for factory first, on top of being able to queue a defense structure and infantry if getting rushed. I'd prefer this over factory first in most situations.
Nod players when expanding can still go pp->ref->strip, (next tib field) pp->ref->strip, and so on. At this point I agree that tinkering with power settings is probably the best way to discourage players going straight for vehicle spam, but probably -60 <---> -70 instead of -50 due to Ref being -40.
Another way to encourage players (mentioned before in this thread) to build a barracks first over a WF is to make the oil derricks more beneficial, something like an engineer refund when capturing a neutral derrick. The current issue with taking derricks off the bat is that it:
1. puts you behind at least 12 seconds on the initial harvester
2. takes too long to refund the engineer AND barracks used to capture it, meaning you won't have enough funds to churn out as many harvesters as your opponent
Having refundable engineers puts the barracks first player somewhat on par with economy compared to somebody going for factory first, on top of being able to queue a defense structure and infantry if getting rushed. I'd prefer this over factory first in most situations.
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AoAGeneral1
- Posts: 597
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:11 pm
I kinda like your ideas about the WF but also need to take into addition of the obelisk too. Reaching the WF power and a few others might seem to high vs the Obelisk power being at 90.
Im willing to see how the obelisk reacts once its fixed before making further adjustments. I like the idea of how the harvesters are working on the map but needs more time so im going to go with the changes here.
Im willing to see how the obelisk reacts once its fixed before making further adjustments. I like the idea of how the harvesters are working on the map but needs more time so im going to go with the changes here.