TD balance thread

AoAGeneral1 · Post by **AoAGeneral1** » Tue Dec 06, 2016 9:14 pm

The engineers without delay was actually in both CNC3 TW and RA3. While a fix was put out for KW and RA3 (later on) it made the engineers have a delay upon capture but was also not a good strategy to use because players didn't know how to handle it.

However, in situations with players who know how to handle them handled them well. For instance in CNC95 grenadiers killed them in one throw. Minigunners were able to force them to prone and slow them down for easy kills. If deployed next to a pack of infantry the player risks having them all killed upon exit due to single cell spawn.

If the tests do not work at all I will consider an alternative use.

AoAGeneral1 · Post by **AoAGeneral1** » Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:30 pm

--==++ the following is not in any test builds. These are solo tests that I do with a few other players. If you are interested in doing these tests as well I will need a way to contect you via Discord for on the spot testing since these files alter the game. ++==--

--REVISED--

Add detection to temple of Nod. --

artillery range increased from 11c0 to 12c0. --

artillery minimum range increase from 2c896 to 3c869. --

guard tower damage vs heavy reduced from 30 to 10. --

mammoth tank HP increase from 800 to 850. --

ion time increase from 3:00 to 4:30. --

nuke timer from 5 to 6. --

nuke damage spread from 2c512 to 5c512. --

nuke spread damage increased from 100 to 110. (First spread modifier) --

a10 timer increased from 3:30 to 4:00. --

MSAM HP from 120 to 180. --

Commando weapon range increased from 6c0 to 8c0. --

Commando weapon projectile speed increased from 1c682 to 5c682. --

Commando price increase from 1000 to 2000. --

Commando build time increased from 24 to 32. (2000 Build duration) --

Husks interval timer increased from 2 to 6. --

MRLS minimum range increased from 3c0 to 4c0. --

Bike damage increase from 30 to 31. --

Chem damage vs none reduced from 100 to 70. --

Chem damage vs armor increased from 50 to 75. --

Grenadier accuracy reduced from 213 to 813. (Makes them miss a lot more). --

Flamer damage vs armor reduced from 20 to 10. (Flame infantry) --

Flamer damage vs none increased from 100 to 110. (Flame infantry.) --

Harv build timer increase from 24 to 27. (1680 build timer) --

Harvester HP increase from 600 to 625. --

Refinery power reduced from 50 to 40. --

Refinery sell no longer refunds. --

Refinery tiberium hold reduced from 2000 to 700. --

Silo hold increase from 2000 to 3000. --

AGT HP from 600 to 550. --

Light Tank price reduced from 700 to 650. --

Visceroid spawn reduce from 10 to 5. --

Increase all building HP by 100. --

Gun turret HP increase from 400 to 410. --

Starting units adjusted. --

MCV build time decreased from 1:36 to 1:12. (4500 duration) --

Engineer HP increase from 25 to 30. --

Capturing structures logic change idea. --

APC HP increase from 210 to 215. --

APC Damage vs light decreased from 105 to 100. --

APC cost decreased from 600 to 550. --

Samsite range increased from 8c0 to 12c0. --

Samsite spread damage decreased from 682 to 128. --

Samsite range limit increased from 9c614 to 15co. --

Samsite reveal shroud decreased from 8c0 to 6c0. --

Samsite now fires two shots at a time. --

Recon Bike HP decreased from 120 to 100. --

Airstrip/Weapon Factory power increased from 30 to 50. --

Communication Center power increased from 40 to 50. --

APC movement speed increased from 128 to 132. --

--------------------------------------

Currently right now it is incredibly easy for Nod to mass out a 4 strip build in 3v3 games. Producing buggy, light tanks, and bikes in a giant ball of death.

There is also the problem of 1v1 games where Nod is able to shutdown GDI completely by building quick harvesters and going with buggy and bikes or light tanks and bikes. This shutsdown GDI into a position where if they lose a harvester they are on a downhill slope since their units are more expensive.

Raising the power will reduce the amount of airstrips and weapons factory each player can have as massing medium tanks is also a potential problem. However, if this testing doesn't go well I can always slow the cargo planes down for Nod so unit arrival is slightly slower.

----------------------------------------

AIRCRAFT:

For musing concerns ive tested so far aircraft as Orca with a higher damage value but slower fire with a 2 shot burst.

Apache with an extremely fast firing rate of a 4 shot burst at 20 ammo capacity.

Both have a slow re-arm speed though of Apache at 1 shot per 20 tick and Orca at two shot per 50 tick. Orca being just slightly faster in the air then the Apache but the Apache with more HP.

Both of their turn speeds were increased to face their targets faster. The result was I feel a little bit to strong so will be played around with further. Specially in the team games I saw and played myself with anjew.

--==++ The aircraft is just a theory mechanic and doesn't mean it will be the official status. ++==--

AoAGeneral1 · Post by **AoAGeneral1** » Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:40 pm

Bumping the post.

The above information has been revised. Also still some time left for voting on the aircraft! http://www.sleipnirstuff.com/forum/view ... 82&t=19848

Materianer · Post by **Materianer** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:02 am

As you said i will post this here

Materianer wrote: ↑
anjew wrote: ↑ Also nice pulse reference, someone else who never looked or posted in the TD balance thread.
I think Pulse and me didnt suspect that this td balance thread has such a fallout for this game.
The reason why i nearly stopped playing td is this Mcv 4k lameness wich almost entirely prevents players from expanding and having a multible structurebuild wich is a important part of TD imo.

@anjew
Could you please show me the part where the discussion about 4k mcv was in the balance thread?

I think @AoAGeneral1 did a good job in balancing this game but the changes with mcv where just much too heavy.
In view of that you need a service depot since the release of the big mcv change, i would have raised the cost to 2500 or maybe 3000 but 4k is often like build mcv and die except in big games.
Was just like an option or tactic has been stolen from a game wich already got not so many options to win in contrast to RA.

So back to the Topic: I think if airunits will be buffed quite a lot and will have to reload for that, can be funny but should be playtested well thx to @Norman_ for takeing this first step in his hand.

This was the pulse thread http://www.sleipnirstuff.com/forum/view ... highlight=

AoAGeneral1 · Post by **AoAGeneral1** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:20 am

@Materianer:

Appreciated!

As far as the MCV goes its undergoing another look but ive had and seen games where 2v2 are producing 2nd MCVs still and coming out with high results. In particular I will post a replay that shows this example once im back at home. (Currently at work).

There was a comment from RA about how TD did the MCV: http://www.sleipnirstuff.com/forum/view ... c&start=15

Under page 2.

The thread here allows people to read the upcoming changes and voice feedback so I can do tests or comment on replied feedback. Sometimes you come across that a particular unit is to strong when in fact you just need to make counter to X and Y. (Example of the detection changes that got revised with some feedback)

Never feel like your voice doesn't matter because majority want this and that. Sometimes a single voice providing good examples can sway the idea.

As far as pulse goes I never saw him make comments in the thread itself and the comments from other players. Light tanks are called light tanks for a reason and should never be able to kill medium tanks and mammoth tanks easily.

---------------

All of this said there might be a MCV change once the refinery goes into affect. Depending on how that works its possible a future change can happen. But as it stands right now I see 2v2 games using MCV builds which work good.

AoAGeneral1 · Post by **AoAGeneral1** » Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:39 pm

Ive just done some games with amhol after some debates about MRLS. The suggestion was made to bring the MRLS range to 11c0 instead of its 12c0. Mention of its damage was noted.

The main counter the MRLS is for is to counter units in large mass quantities. (Buggy/bike builds, large numbers of light tanks, etc).

After several games there is a few im inclinded to agree with. The HP might be a bit to high in comparison. Using the light vehicles to attack the MRLS seems somewhat tanky with how mobile the unit is. An HP drop from 120 to 100 might be a good thing.

Going to test around with some AoE numbers and having it do more central damage and see what happens as well. Last time I tried this it didn't kill the light vehicles all to well (Stealth Tank counters).

The other I could do is with the grenadier buff I could lower the damage vs none (infantry) so they can take more hits. Specially since the ref is getting its power reduced.

I think the over all damage vs structures is in a good spot though. GDI needs a good counter vs defense structures and etc (including if the obelisk gets fixed)

AoAGeneral1 · Post by **AoAGeneral1** » Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:39 am

Add detection to temple of Nod.

artillery minimum range increase from 2c896 to 3c0.

mammoth tank HP increase from 800 to 870.

ion time increase from 3:00 to 4:30.

nuke timer from 5 to 6.

nuke damage spread from 2c512 to 5c512.

nuke spread damage increased from 100 to 110. (First spread modifier)

a10 timer increased from 3:30 to 4:00.

MSAM HP from 120 to 180.

Commando weapon range increased from 6c0 to 8c0.

Commando weapon projectile speed increased from 1c682 to 5c682.

Commando price increase from 1000 to 2000.

Commando build time increased from 24 to 32.

Husks interval timer increased from 2 to 6.

Bike damage increase from 30 to 31.

Chem damage vs none reduced from 100 to 70.

Chem damage vs armor increased from 50 to 75.

Grenadier accuracy reduced from 213 to 813. (Makes them miss a lot more).

Flamer damage vs armor reduced from 20 to 10. (Flame infantry)

Flamer damage vs none increased from 100 to 110. (Flame infantry.)

Harv build timer increase from 24 to 27.

Harvester HP increase from 600 to 625.

Refinery power reduced from 50 to 40.

Refinery sell no longer refunds.

Refinery tiberium hold reduced from 2000 to 700.

Silo hold increase from 2000 to 3000.

AGT HP from 600 to 550.

Light Tank price reduced from 700 to 650.

Visceroid spawn reduce from 10 to 5.

Increase all building HP by 100.

Gun turret HP increase from 400 to 410.

Starting units adjusted.

MCV build time decreased from 1:36 to 1:00.

Engineer HP increase from 25 to 30.

Engineers now capture externally. (RA Mechanic)

Engineers now capture structures in 5 seconds.

Engineer is consumed upon capture.

APC HP increase from 210 to 215.

APC Damage vs light decreased from 105 to 100.

APC cost decreased from 600 to 550.

Samsite range increased from 8c0 to 12c0.

Samsite spread damage decreased from 682 to 128.

Samsite range limit increased from 9c614 to 15co.

Samsite reveal shroud decreased from 8c0 to 6c0.

Samsite now fires two shots at a time.

Recon Bike HP decreased from 120 to 100.

Airstrip/Weapon Factory power increased from 30 to 50.

Communication Center power increased from 40 to 50.

APC movement speed increased from 128 to 132.

MRLS range reduced from 12c0 to 11c0.

MRLS damage vs none reduced from 35 to 25.

-------------------------

These are the final changes I have setup. Please post your feedback on any idea or concerns you may have for discussion or testing.

About the MRLS volleys I originally thought it was a six volley and not an eight. Turns out I was wrong because I never heard the sixth volley shot go off but always the eighth instead. Reducing to six volley will reduce its maximum damage. The damage remains as is to compete vs Nod light tech units. (Such as mass buggy/bike and stealth tanks)

CampinJeff · Post by **CampinJeff** » Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:18 pm

MLRS nerf might be a bit too harsh. If the volley count and range is dropped, then the infantry damage doesn't need to go down aswell imo. Even right now they only decent at best for anti-inf, and are already hard countered by light tanks

AoAGeneral1 · Post by **AoAGeneral1** » Fri Dec 23, 2016 5:52 am

Hmmm...

Taking into consideration of vs light tanks is a good point in regards. I may keep them at a volley of 8 but reduce their range to 11c0 to match arty. Originally I wanted to increase arty range but it turned out that arty became a harder target to reach and take out. Ive had anjew suggest in adding back in the chain explosion effect but im a little hesitant with the recent flame tank build.

I think for right now I will keep it at an 8 volley with a range of 11c0. But I do want them doing a little bit less damage to infantry. Some of the damage they do to certian infantry is fine but they nearly kill e3 in a single volley shot. I think that is a little to much. I think sitting at 25 would be better instead of 35?

CampinJeff · Post by **CampinJeff** » Fri Dec 23, 2016 7:42 am

8 volley with the same range as arty, 35->25 inf sounds like a good start for testing. Didn't really consider MLRS having much faster projectiles, so yeah maybe a little nerf would be fine

klaas · Post by **klaas** » Fri Dec 23, 2016 8:54 am

I've played some TD the last week, and I have to say MRLSs are my go to spam unit as GDI. Their firepower in groups is unmatched. Decreasing their range and damage a bit seems fair.

AoAGeneral1 · Post by **AoAGeneral1** » Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:33 am

Sounds good then. I will work on it next day. Doing a few other tests.

anjew · Post by **anjew** » Sat Dec 24, 2016 6:23 am

klaas wrote: ↑I've played some TD the last week, and I have to say MRLSs are my go to spam unit as GDI. Their firepower in groups is unmatched. Decreasing their range and damage a bit seems fair.

I feel the same about arty. They really smash tanks etc.

AoAGeneral1 · Post by **AoAGeneral1** » Sat Dec 24, 2016 7:51 am

Arty is something I am looking at vs GDI situations. in Nod vs Nod I don't think its to much of an issue. There is currently a small explosion chain reaction but I don't want them all blowing up at once. Perhaps they are a bit to cheap in production?

---------------

Working on putting changes into bleed. Map reference credit to Insert Name http://resource.openra.net/maps/17864/

klaas · Post by **klaas** » Sun Dec 25, 2016 10:05 am

Arty seem much less powerful, also because the projectile speed is slower. And NOD just do not have good damage soaks like medium tanks, so static NOD armies are not hard to deal with.