As a newbie to oRA, I get the impression that Allies are much easier to play early game. I find microing with Soviets much harder. As someone who likes Soviets but keeps loosing early in matches, I'm learning to play Allies early game. This is what I've found;
Hinds survive longer than yaks
When under attack, yaks can only bank left or right into enemy fire, hinds can move backwards instantly. Yaks seem more fragile too.
Hind firepower is much greater than the yaks
The yaks RoF is only good when units are widely spread out. The hind doesn't need to circle or strafe so it eliminates soft targets much faster.
Soviet early game micro is much harder
With the hind, you can just attack move behind a bunch of soft targets and instantly pull away when under attack. With yaks you have to choose an efficient strafe run each time. If you mess up your micro, yaks can end up circling far further than you want. One AA/SAM can bring a yak down in a couple of seconds. If joined by one RS, that goes down to a single second. Hinds are easier to micro out of harms way.
Allied artillery units are far better than Soviet
Artys are $100 cheaper, have better range and have much better RoF. Killing V2s with arty is much easier because of their RoF. Against massed and dispersed infantry a single arty is as effective as 2 or 3 V2s. Given that defence - unit for unit - you can have the same effective defence for $1900 less as Allies. With that same money and time you can build an AF/HP and a Yak/Hind.
Given equal numbers of units on both sides, Allies, with their better artillery units and better air units will generally kill soviets off much faster in early games. When playing large maps, where players can't build to the map border and no front line stretches across the entire map, early game as soviets is much easier because of macro and flanking options. That said, I find the majority of maps I play on are the opposite of this.
I don't know if there have been any changes to any of these units in the playtests, but I would like to see the arty and V2 a little more equal. They could be equally priced and the V2s splash could be buffed to balance their effectiveness against infantry.
I also feel that soviets need a dedicated helicopter scout, with the yak allowed to fulfil its more suited role of cheap attack bomber. It would be cool if the Soviets got the hind back but armed with anti infantry rockets equivalent to the current hind cannon. The Allied longbow could get swapped into the hinds current place, gaining it's stats and anti inf cannon.
(Also, ore silos should be moved into the defence build tab like in the TD mod.)
IMHO if microing early game was easier as Soviet, I feel they would have the same range of strategies available to them as the Allies. I think microing early game would then play a much greater role until mid game is reached, when each faction's unique strategies are unlocked.
I would like to hear how skilled players play Soviets early game on those maps.
Really fun game btw.
Please discuss.
Allies vs Soviets early game on small maps
Allies vs Soviets early game on small maps
Last edited by r34ch on Sat Apr 11, 2015 5:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
-
PersianImmortal
- Posts: 157
- Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:04 am
I don't think the V2 and arty need to be equalized. I don't see why people have such a hard time using v2s. They're more agile and more accurate than arty. Take advantage of that. Arties also shouldn't be nerfed. The soviets already have better tanks then then the allies. Allies deserve a better artillery unit then the soviets.
I agree the yak needs a Small damage buff. It's stupid how it takes it two strafes to kill a v2. however other than that I find them easier to use against Arties then hinds. With their speed I can usually get 2 or 3 arties easy before its shot down. Where as the hind moves much slower and has a harder time getting multi arty kills.
I agree the yak needs a Small damage buff. It's stupid how it takes it two strafes to kill a v2. however other than that I find them easier to use against Arties then hinds. With their speed I can usually get 2 or 3 arties easy before its shot down. Where as the hind moves much slower and has a harder time getting multi arty kills.
I haven't seen many games involving more than a few tanks other than mammoths and chronotanks but I feel mid and late game (involving Soviet tanks) aren't unbalanced, but the early game units I listed I feel are a little unbalanced.PersianImmortal wrote: ↑The soviets already have better tanks then then the allies. Allies deserve a better artillery unit then the soviets.
My proposal would accommodate for both play styles, you would have to choose one or the other until income increased.PersianImmortal wrote: ↑however other than that I find them easier to use against Arties then hinds. With their speed I can usually get 2 or 3 arties easy before its shot down.
A good microing Soviet player is pretty nightmarish to deal with, speaking from personal experience.
The V2s are fast and manoeuvrable, with a high warhead damage. This can let them do hit-and-run attacks on base structures. This actually used to be a massive, game-crippling problem when a V2 did enough damage to one-shot power plants.
Yaks have a significantly higher rate of fire than hinds, which can let them do hit-and-run attacks on base structures etc better than hinds in the right circumstances.
Flak trucks are also fast, and are great harrassment anti-air and anti-infantry vehicles.
APCs full of grenadiers or flamethrowers etc are also pretty great.
The Soviet units are very heavily oriented towards attacking, and the Allied units are more defense-oriented (of course there are some exceptions). On maps which give freedom to move you'll find that Soviet units become significantly better. Chokepointy maps tend to give Allies the advantage.
The V2s are fast and manoeuvrable, with a high warhead damage. This can let them do hit-and-run attacks on base structures. This actually used to be a massive, game-crippling problem when a V2 did enough damage to one-shot power plants.
Yaks have a significantly higher rate of fire than hinds, which can let them do hit-and-run attacks on base structures etc better than hinds in the right circumstances.
Flak trucks are also fast, and are great harrassment anti-air and anti-infantry vehicles.
APCs full of grenadiers or flamethrowers etc are also pretty great.
The Soviet units are very heavily oriented towards attacking, and the Allied units are more defense-oriented (of course there are some exceptions). On maps which give freedom to move you'll find that Soviet units become significantly better. Chokepointy maps tend to give Allies the advantage.
-
PersianImmortal
- Posts: 157
- Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:04 am
If you're letting an allied player pound the shit out of your base in the first 5 minutes you're doing it wrong. There are hardly any "small" maps were you're forced to engage in the first 3-4 minutes and even if you find yourself in that situation you should still be able to micro your v2s and yaks well enough to stop them.r34ch wrote: ↑I haven't seen many games involving more than a few tanks other than mammoths and chronotanks but I feel mid and late game (involving Soviet tanks) aren't unbalanced, but the early game units I listed I feel are a little unbalanced.PersianImmortal wrote: ↑The soviets already have better tanks then then the allies. Allies deserve a better artillery unit then the soviets.
My proposal would accommodate for both play styles, you would have to choose one or the other until income increased.PersianImmortal wrote: ↑however other than that I find them easier to use against Arties then hinds. With their speed I can usually get 2 or 3 arties easy before its shot down.
So you do agree its a problem on small maps?PersianImmortal wrote: ↑if you find yourself in that situation you should still be able to micro your v2s and yaks well enough to stop them.
Vegetation is one of the most played maps on the server. Thats a small map. You are fighting within 3 minutes of the map if you spawn near the front. A pattern of islands is another map where you are fighting within minutes. ANY FFA map; fighting in minutes. In fact the more I list, the bigger I feel this problem is. Med sized maps where soviets spawn near the front, if soviets don't get help, Allies have an advantage. And IMHO I think this is represented on the servers by the number of people who play Allies in those cases.
Common scenario;
Allied player with a defensive line with Rifles and RS, with RS dotted about their arty, and a hind above their infantry; i.e. RS/Hind/Arty 'spam'
As Allies;
- Also build a scattered line of RS and Rifles.
- Have a hind as LoS above them
- Park arty a few cells behind them.
- Arty wipes out his inf while his arty wipe out mine. Fair trade.
- Hinds mop up any remaining RS and artillery.
Microing skill; low. Between selecting priority targets, arty wipes out infantry and soft targets with RoF. Hind attack move can wipe out both infantry and arty. More focus on macro and micro elsewhere.
Whoever micros best, gains the advantage. Fun and balanced.
As Soviets; (pretty much the soviet equivalent to the Allied play)
- Spam infantry and RS (or flak, but then no V2s..)
- Put a yak in the air and some V2s behind your inf.
- We trade infantry, but I loose more, faster, because of his RoF from both his arty and hinds.
- I suicide my LoS air units to try and take out his arty. I get a couple, but now I have no LoS while my next yak is building
- I try and use my V2s or flak to get his infantry but his arty RoF completely out DPM my infantry. Yaks RoF is dreadful for infantry.
- As my RS infantry are destroyed by his superior RoF, his still stand. I cannot use yaks to get close enough to LoS his arty (never mind attack) because I cannot kill his infantry as fast as he can mine. If I have no LoS, how can I snipe artys with V2s!?
- He moves his Hinds in to mop up my remaining RS and then V2s.
- Arty spam spam spam...
Unless against another Soviet player, unbalanced. Major disadvantage.
I would say the same about any player who is good at microing, I just feel early game soviets must micro to a much greater level than allies to survive to mid game.Scott_NZ wrote: ↑A good microing Soviet player is pretty nightmarish to deal with, speaking from personal experience.
Which is why I think they are suited as light attack bombers and not scouts. I can snipe a few buildings with my yaks, but that doesn't address his artys and hinds on my front door, which is the problem Im highlighting.Scott_NZ wrote: ↑Yaks have a significantly higher rate of fire than hinds, which can let them do hit-and-run attacks on base structures etc better than hinds in the right circumstances.
Both options I have tried. I can take apart his base with a flame/apc rush but he can do the same to mine with his arty. Difference is a single Hind or arty can dispatch my flamers faster I can dispatch his long range arty. That's a macro trade which still gives an Allied advantage. I have rushed APCs into the front lines but with the hinds and artys spread out, it just isn't a viable option.Scott_NZ wrote: ↑ Flak trucks are also fast, and are great harrassment anti-air and anti-infantry vehicles.
APCs full of grenadiers or flamethrowers etc are also pretty great.
I'm not arguing against any of this, just on small maps, which DO high a play count on servers.Scott_NZ wrote: ↑The Soviet units are very heavily oriented towards attacking, and the Allied units are more defense-oriented (of course there are some exceptions). On maps which give freedom to move you'll find that Soviet units become significantly better. Chokepointy maps tend to give Allies the advantage.
I call to all advanced players to provide replays as Soviet, playing on the front lines against equally skilled Allies on small maps against this scenario, without team-mates help. I will happily admit it is my play skill that is the issue and not game balance if I see multiple replays showing me otherwise. I would also love to see the official stats for these kinds of maps.
-
PersianImmortal
- Posts: 157
- Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:04 am
No. I don't admit it's a problem because it's not. I have no problems going against a skilled allied player on vegetation as a soviet player. You need to use the strengths of the soviet faction to your advantage. Your teslas outrange their turrets and make quick work of AA use them. If their turrets are in range of your tesla use concrete. Teslas can shoot over concrete and turrets cant.
You act like microing v2s is difficult and some Herculean feat of strength. It's not. As soviet you also don't have to use V2s you can use your heavy tank which is superior to the allied medium tank in everyway. A push combining basewalking, yaks, heavies, and infantry is hard for even a skilled allied player to stop. You can also use yaks to tech snipe if you have a few to spare.
You also cite the map a pattern of isles as justification which is a terrible map. It's clear that the only way to win is to move the mcv right to the middle.
Subsequently you complain that allied units in the beginning have a higher DPM. Welcome to the world of RTS where each faction has different strengths and weaknesses.
You act like microing v2s is difficult and some Herculean feat of strength. It's not. As soviet you also don't have to use V2s you can use your heavy tank which is superior to the allied medium tank in everyway. A push combining basewalking, yaks, heavies, and infantry is hard for even a skilled allied player to stop. You can also use yaks to tech snipe if you have a few to spare.
You also cite the map a pattern of isles as justification which is a terrible map. It's clear that the only way to win is to move the mcv right to the middle.
Subsequently you complain that allied units in the beginning have a higher DPM. Welcome to the world of RTS where each faction has different strengths and weaknesses.
-
noobmapmaker
- Posts: 1086
- Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:59 am
It also feels to me that allies can do more sneak attacks. With the transportheli and truck that allows 1 infantry (forgot it's name). Also they got Tanya..
Perhaps soviets should be able to paradrop a group of infantry somewhere. The player must walk a mixture (max 5) into the tech centre and they can be dropped after 4 mins or so. With that the soviets can also drop a engineer + 4 rocket soldiers on an island with oil derricks.
Most of the time I choose Any to practice with both sides, but allies seem much easier to get tricky with AND/OR attack with hinds/artillery and RS.
With soviets I only know flamethrowers as a sneakattack. But that is a cheapish /easy tactic that I try to do only later.
Perhaps soviets should be able to paradrop a group of infantry somewhere. The player must walk a mixture (max 5) into the tech centre and they can be dropped after 4 mins or so. With that the soviets can also drop a engineer + 4 rocket soldiers on an island with oil derricks.
Most of the time I choose Any to practice with both sides, but allies seem much easier to get tricky with AND/OR attack with hinds/artillery and RS.
With soviets I only know flamethrowers as a sneakattack. But that is a cheapish /easy tactic that I try to do only later.
I mainly play soviets. Can be tricky to deal with but must know how to use all units.
-V2s Vs. Artillery
I like that they are different units, I would be against them being the same. If allies don't separate their artillery on v2 shot can kill any artillery that are touching together, where the v2s have shorter range but don't splash explode in the same way. v2s hit harder and more accurately, use that to advantage.
What is powerful for me, is combing use of flaks and infantry. It is risky, but attack move infantry, then send flaks, the flags will get there first and be able to take out artillery, next infantry mix will come in and do serious damage.
The power of soviets will come in overwhelming your enemies, the key to this is good economy. Challenge yourself on your favorite maps in single player. Pick a map then see how much $ you can get in 5 minutes, find better ore placements, learn to micro your miners (especially in the beginning stage), and figure out optimal build orders. Experiment. It is not easy but attainable.
A popular counter to the soviets tanks are the use of mechanics. If an allie player starts using them to take my tanks, I switch to tesla tanks which leave no husk, and have faster speed.
The iron curtain is essential. This isn't for early game, but combining iron curtain with demo trucks is very powerful. Just as your demo truck is about to be built, iron curtain some units and send them in. The enemy units will all start attacking those units, and while your able to take out stuff with them, the main goal is to drive the demo truck in. If timed right, the explosion will not hurt your units which can continue attacking as the curtain comes off. Follow this with an infantry rush and you are hitting hard.
-V2s Vs. Artillery
I like that they are different units, I would be against them being the same. If allies don't separate their artillery on v2 shot can kill any artillery that are touching together, where the v2s have shorter range but don't splash explode in the same way. v2s hit harder and more accurately, use that to advantage.
What is powerful for me, is combing use of flaks and infantry. It is risky, but attack move infantry, then send flaks, the flags will get there first and be able to take out artillery, next infantry mix will come in and do serious damage.
The power of soviets will come in overwhelming your enemies, the key to this is good economy. Challenge yourself on your favorite maps in single player. Pick a map then see how much $ you can get in 5 minutes, find better ore placements, learn to micro your miners (especially in the beginning stage), and figure out optimal build orders. Experiment. It is not easy but attainable.
A popular counter to the soviets tanks are the use of mechanics. If an allie player starts using them to take my tanks, I switch to tesla tanks which leave no husk, and have faster speed.
The iron curtain is essential. This isn't for early game, but combining iron curtain with demo trucks is very powerful. Just as your demo truck is about to be built, iron curtain some units and send them in. The enemy units will all start attacking those units, and while your able to take out stuff with them, the main goal is to drive the demo truck in. If timed right, the explosion will not hurt your units which can continue attacking as the curtain comes off. Follow this with an infantry rush and you are hitting hard.
I humbly admit i was wrong and my playstyle and skill level was at fault. I had a long and unlucky run of losses.
I have used the suggestions in this thread and won a number of times as Soviets in both small maps and in FFA. I now agree that the sides are not as imbalanced as I had claimed.
As for the mostly Allied dominated matches I saw, this has started to level out and I have seen more players play successfully as Soviet.
Thankyou to PersianImmortal, Scott_NZ, noobmapmaker and raymundo for good playstyle advice. I'm having much more fun as both Allies and Soviets now.
I look forward to the next release.
I have used the suggestions in this thread and won a number of times as Soviets in both small maps and in FFA. I now agree that the sides are not as imbalanced as I had claimed.
As for the mostly Allied dominated matches I saw, this has started to level out and I have seen more players play successfully as Soviet.
Thankyou to PersianImmortal, Scott_NZ, noobmapmaker and raymundo for good playstyle advice. I'm having much more fun as both Allies and Soviets now.
I look forward to the next release.
Could we have an "OpenRa Strategy Wiki" with some of the most famous, infamous, nasty, sneaky, choky and sexy strategies and tactics for the game? I know there´s a FAQ with some of the play mechanics for this game, but there´s nothing about build orders and strategies for Allies and Soviets. I think it would be a good idea to make this happen so it will be easier to learn for newcoming players.
GG.
GG.
-
PersianImmortal
- Posts: 157
- Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:04 am
R43CH glad to hear you took the advice in this thread and used it to
Improve yourself. It's always good to see newer players get better
squirrel, I was going to write a guide eventually once school and life calmed down but i like your wiki idea better. We should seriously do that so everyone can contribute strategies and help newer players get acquainted with the game and try out new the starts listed. We should probably wait until the new release is out to start it though because factions may mix tgings up a bit
Improve yourself. It's always good to see newer players get better
squirrel, I was going to write a guide eventually once school and life calmed down but i like your wiki idea better. We should seriously do that so everyone can contribute strategies and help newer players get acquainted with the game and try out new the starts listed. We should probably wait until the new release is out to start it though because factions may mix tgings up a bit