My thoughts on the new play test

[PersianImmortal]

I'm making this thread to give feedback on the new play test, I realize there are several others but this is going to be a fairly long post and i'd like a thread dedicated to it.

First off, I'm considered one of the "better" openra players. I went 6-0 in the "Big team tournament" and win the majority of the games i play. I feel that I'm more than qualified to give balancing advice and feedback on the playtest changes.

So, lets start with the "allied" faction and it's ability to build fake buildings .

The vast majority of successful RTS games (starcraft, newer CnCs, warcraft etc) do not have fake buildings and with good reason. Fake buildings take away from what is an important aspect of the RTS genre which is defending important structures. If I have my nuke up then I need to put a decent amount of AA and troops around it to protect it from chronos, yaks, hinds and what ever else. Well now with a fake nuke I can just spam 10 of them in the span of 50 seconds and not have to worry about anyone committing a sizable force of yaks or whatever to take it out because well they don't know which one it is and its madness to risk 12k worth of units for a 1/10 chance of getting the right nuke.

At the very least fake nukes and fake chronos need to be removed.

Brits: they're fine and i like the changes. the spy and phase transport will give them an interesting play style

Germans: the advanced chronosphere is an interesting idea and from what I can tell a good idea but we'll have to see how it plays out when the playtest goes live.

France: Again seems like a good idea, Gaps are one of the best tools in the allied arsenal and a faction based around a buffed version of it could be interesting.

"Soviet" factions: Now we get to what I believe are the stupidest changes. The soviet faction is now a nerfed version of what we have now. I get to keep my spyplane and paratroops in exchange for losing my demo truck.

Russia: again another stupid change. I get the heavy tank drop which has a a long charge time and on the whole is inconsistent at best because paradrops get shot down 90% of the time. Oh and I get to lose my demotruck AND SPYPLANE which is extremely important to soviets in the late game.

Ukraine: lol paradrops. Lose the spy plane and paratroops for something terrible that i don't even fear early game when someone gets them in a crate.


My proposed solutions.

Since there's no point to making a thread pointing out the flaws in balance changes without suggesting fixes here we go.

The allied faction needs to lose the fake nuke and fake chronosphere for reasons listed above. RTS games aren't games of chance. If i wanted to play a game of chance i'd go play some kiddie games on FB like candy crush.

As for soviets, the spy plane needs to be left in on all factions. It plays a huge role late game and the soviet faction is gimped without it. For their special unit I would give them an advanced mammoth, it would be like the old mammoth and fire rockets as well it's normal attack well shooting at all targets. It would of course have a longer build time and cost more.

Russia: I'm fine with trading paratroops for paratanks but the paratanks ability needs to be made more consistent and have a minute shaved off of its cooldown. Make paradrops like the Call of Duty precision airstrike. For those who don't know how it works, an icon like appears on the screen and you choose the direction the bombers come onto the map which would stop them from being shotdown 90% of the time.
I'd also get rid of the mad tank all together, it's absolute garbage. No one uses it, unless you're chronoing it.The mad tank special unit could be replaced with an advanced SAM site. It's the same soviet SAM site but a slightly longer range and stronger missiles. It would be more akin to the old AA from a year ago we all know and love or it even could be replaced with the air to air mig i've been harping on.

As for the Ukies: Replace parabombs with a TD like airstrike, dropped by MiGs and give it a 5 minute cooldown. This would be much nicer then awful parabombs and actually would be on par with the buffs some allied factions are receiving.
For their special unit they can just keep the demotruck.

[noobmapmaker]

Regarding the bombs.. yeah Im often dissapointed when I get them in a crate. Theyre usefull as a spyplane like way to see a base... but the bombs do little.

The bombs could be stronger or may be a 2nd and even 3rd plane could join?

[PersianImmortal]

Regarding the bombs.. yeah Im often dissapointed when I get them in a crate. Theyre usefull as a spyplane like way to see a base... but the bombs do little.

The bombs could be stronger or may be a 2nd and even 3rd plane could join?

If they're insistent on keeping parabombs that would certainly be within the realm of possibilities.
We'd still need them to be like the CoD precision airstrike in order to avoid AA and to do as much damage as possible.

In a situation like this, the badgers coming in horizontal would do much more damage
compared to vertically which would leave the outer turrets intact

[Sleipnir]

This seems like a well reasoned set of feedback - thanks for putting in the effort to write this up PersianImmortal.

The issues with the soviets are well known now, and I don't think we will be able to get away with shipping a proper release until we fix this (or perhaps defer countries to a later release).

My own thoughts on this:

• Having to balance the country bonuses against the vanilla faction makes things unnecessarily difficult. We should remove the vanilla Allied/Soviet factions. Players can select "Any Allies/Soviet" options if they don't want to pick.
• Fake structures are dumb. I don't think it is necessary to give them to anyone.
• Russia should be tesla themed like in RA2. Give them the tesla tank and shock trooper as faction-specific units.
• Ukraine could become the explosives expert, with demo trucks and parabombs.
• Both soviet factions should retain spy plane and paradrop.
• I agree that the MAD tank is a silly unit, but don't have a strong opinion on what to do about it.

The ability to select the airstrike/paradrop direction is a long-planned feature, but is tricky to implement so won't happen in the near future.

[deniz1a]

I think instead of removing units and buildings, different countries should get new improved ones. Allied countries get advanced chrono, advanced gap... So soviets should get advanced iron curtain, advanced mammoth tank, advanced submarine... Also Sonar could be one of these additional powers if it's fixed. And fake structures should be available to all factions. They are a basic concept. Why shouldn't a faction be able to build a fake structure if it can build the real one? They would bring interesting gameplay options and if they were available for all factions it wouldn't create an imbalance.

And yes spy plane and paratroopers are very important so removing them is not a good idea.

[raymundo]

I agree with removing fake nuke/chrono.

Ukraine should additionally get the ability to build Crazy Ivan from RA2, possibly with a limited number to build. The parabomb is weak, the demo truck is limited and will become predictable in its use. So either buff parabomb or add in Crazy Ivan. http://cnc.wikia.com/wiki/Crazy_Ivan

Spy plane is essential for soviets considering all allies can get GPS satellite.

[BaronOfStuff]

I agree with removing fake nuke/chrono.

Ukraine should additionally get the ability to build Crazy Ivan from RA2.

This is a joke, right?

[PersianImmortal]

Sleipnir:
1) I understand that it might be difficult to code, but the problem is that these "buffs" are supposed to be the selling point of these factions and selling a product that fails 90% of the time and when it does work is inconsistent isn't going to be bought by anybody.

2) I agree with you on the vanilla factions part. It just seems pointless and as you said unnecessarily difficult to balance. I'm also glad you're in agreement with the spy plane and paratroops as well.

3) The idea of Russia being Tesla specialized could work, but as of right now I and other players don't have an incentive to build the tesla tank and trooper over the other units in the Soviet's arsenal. Late game usually I'm pumping out mammoths, if i need some more mobile AA i'll switch to flaks, and if I need some artillery I'll switch to v2s etc etc. Right now the Tesla tank just doesn't have a place on the battlefield as there's nothing it can do particularly well. Maybe we could buff its speed and range a bit and allow it to specialize in hit and run and harassment. The tesla trooper would also need a unique role because as of now I see no reason to build him over rocket troops or riflemen.

4) Ukraine being explosive specialized is also a good idea granted that we can make para bombs useful and consistent and not a minor nuisance at best. Perhaps a swarm of spy planes can drop them until the directional airstrikes issue can be worked out. The demotruck definitely has a place within their faction and a well timed demo can wreak havoc on the battlefield but the demo alone is definitely not something that makes for a good selling point because as others have said it becomes stale and predictable after sometime.

Raymundo, the developers have indicated they don't want to try to maintain some of the games "integrity" and only incorporate units found in the original.


Denizi1a: There are several reasons why fake buildings have no place in the RTS format. The first of which is there is no precedent to suggest that they could be successfully implemented without changing one of the major aspects of the RTS genre which would subsequently affect the core game play of an RTS. We've seen Blizzard and the more modern CnCs shy away from this idea for a reason. The aspect in question, is the importance of defending important structures such as the nuke which when launched can completely alter the flow of the battle and shift a losing situation into a winning one. If I know where your nuke is you must now devote massive resources to defend it, AA, tanks, etc. It's a high risk investment with a great reward if you can successfully defend it. If you have fake buildings and decide instead of investing massive amounts of resources to defend the nuke you just want to spam about 7 or 8 fake ones then you can do that and I as the opposing player have no way to figure out which one is real until it's to late. If I do launch an attack odds are i'm not going to be able to get the real one and possibly lose my entire force in the process.

The reasons above is also why the developers decided to limit nukes to one because back then people would just build 4 or 5 knowing you wont be able to get them all.

Secondly when it comes to fake structures like Radar or whatever the same concept applies. You can spam some fake ones and its likely i wont get the real one well again losing my entire attack force in the process and subsequently you get to maintain the benefits that radar provides with a much less investment.

There's of course the argument well I can still build 2 or 3 extra radars and do the same thing so what is wrong with a fake one? The issue here is that the fake on takes much less resources to produce where as building extra radars are a trade off for improving your economy or production times for other units because you'd like the added benefit of having a guarantee to have the ability to produce units that radar allows for you to produce.

[Cthulhuu]

@Persianimortal


I can see your reason of not wanting the fake buildings, but i also think it would be a nice new way to sometimes use it as a ruse.

Not including nukes, or more then 1 fake of any building.


Defending one mayor point has its benefits if it flows the way .... you wanted it.

I think its more of the way you imagine and play out your game vs the fact that most rts's did not remove them from feature for the reasons you have mentioned.


Having them in only one country, i think is the best way to balance it. So people do not over use it.

1 building a game would also be a nice feature.

[PersianImmortal]

@Persianimortal


I can see your reason of not wanting the fake buildings, but i also think it would be a nice new way to sometimes use it as a ruse.

Not including nukes, or more then 1 fake of any building.


Defending one mayor point has its benefits if it flows the way .... you wanted it.

I think its more of the way you imagine and play out your game vs the fact that most rts's did not remove them from feature for the reasons you have mentioned.


Having them in only one country, i think is the best way to balance it. So people do not over use it.

1 building a game would also be a nice feature.

Most never added them and CnC backed away when TS and RA2 came out. Fake buildings just prevent a strategy employed by a lot of good RTS players called tech sniping. It's was used heavily in the SC1 when i played it back in the day. If I was terran I'd use cloaked wraiths to go in and wipe out Spires if a zerg player is going muta or hit the hydra den if he was going mainly hyrdalisks or whatever. This strategy is viable in RA too if an ally is going arty then you can try to hit the radar dome with flamers or yaks or whatever. If the soviet is going mammoths then you hit the tech center and slow him down. Fake building make this much harder to execute and make it much easier to defend against tech sniping.

Tech sniping as of now= hard to execute but pays off if you succeed. Defending against it takes moderate skill. Now we introduce fake buildings and Tech sniping is now extremely hard to execute and defending against it goes from moderate to easy and again it adds a chance factor into this RTS which doesn't have place in the RTS genre. The trade off of making a once viable strategy extremely hard to execute for making it much easier to defend against isn't worth it.

[raymundo]

I agree with removing fake nuke/chrono.

Ukraine should additionally get the ability to build Crazy Ivan from RA2.

This is a joke, right?

Why a joke, it fits the Ukraine explosives theme. It does open the door for adding other units that weren't in the original, a door which we may not want to open.

[JOo]

@PersianImmortal :

i could start talking about soviets "iron curtain" ... people use it on tech-buildings in the last second and basicly avoid every crono-strat or i waste my nuke on it
isnt that almost the same thing like having a second (fake) missile silo or cronospehere to protect the original ...just with a 50/50 chance .... which would work only 1 time ... while Iron Curtain at the other hand ....

[PersianImmortal]

@PersianImmortal :

i could start talking about soviets "iron curtain" ... people use it on tech-buildings in the last second and basicly avoid every crono-strat or i waste my nuke on it
isnt that almost the same thing like having a second (fake) missile silo or cronospehere to protect the original ...just with a 50/50 chance .... which would work only 1 time ... while Iron Curtain at the other hand ....

Not really. If I pop my iron curtain then after its expired the building is open for attack until
my iron curtain recharges. It also requires the soviet player not to pop his curtain on anything else but his nuke. If you pressure him and force him to use it then his nuke is wide open for a chrono attack. Or you can hit the curtain with hinds force him to use it on his own curtain then chrono etc etc etc.
And like I said the RTS genre isn't supposed to have luck play much of a factor in determining outcomes of a game. This isn't candy crush saga.

[newwe]

You should be able to balance fake structures by not making them too cheap. In order to make the fake nuke convincing, the player probably has to invest in some defenses to protect it, making the strategy a little more pricey. Also, the fake buildings have low HP, so you could try a cheap snipe and if the building doesn't lose health rapidly, you know it's real.

Another idea is to make it look slightly different - maybe they look the same in shroud but the real one has an animation when unshrouded. Even without this, I would argue that a skilled player would have a better than 50% chance of knowing which silo is real (if there are only 2). So as long they are well implemented, I think fake buildings add to the game without hurting balance.

[JOo]

its not like you cant do anything to figure out what the correct missile silo is ... "before" you actually start a serious attempt to destroy it

you could alway drop some paratroopers ... youll need only 1 hit to figure it out ... because they have significant less hp ... even a single single yak could do ... or what about the other rush-units soviet have .... you could even (easily) rush in some apc to see what the correct one is ..

of course its "luck" when you just nuke someones missile-silo or cronosphere without checking the buildings out ... thats why you test it out before .... giving it a limitation would make this significant easier ...

im sry , i just speak out some facts .... im not particular interested to keep the fakes , but i dont think its that of a "candy crush" element to have ... unless someone really thinks he has to guess which one is the fake or the real one by testing it with a nuke or teleporting 5 units over

edit : again , i dont really care that much to keep em and i will stay behind you @PersianImmortal when its all about a vote ... but i dont want it to be called "dumb" or a "luck element" because its something westwood used in the original ... we can always modify it the way we all agree with it , we dont have to waste ressources just because 20 years ago developers didnt know how to proper balance stuff

and lets not forget , all the new factions are a great way to introduce them in our gameplay ...

like you allready nicely quoted @PersianImmortal :

.. the developers have indicated they don't want to try to maintain some of the games "integrity" and only incorporate units found in the original. ...

so lets do something usefull with the content we have ... @Sleipnir