Proposed balance changes for Tiberian Sun. (WiP)

Discussion about the game and its default mods.
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epice
Posts: 174
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:39 am

Proposed balance changes for Tiberian Sun. (WiP)

Post by epice »

I want to take lead on the balance of Tiberian Sun whenever the heck its actually finished. So I'm working on what will be changed in response to the new mechanics in the openRA engine.

General:
- Aircraft will stay in the air and not land except at helipads or a service depot or told specifically to land. (Need to be able to land Nod can repair theirs.)
- Aircraft can move into shroud and reveal quite a bit of terrain, Harpy and Orca Fighter revealing the most.
- Subterranean units can "wait" underground and pop up when told to deploy, APC will dump infantry and return underground.
- Destroyable cliffs have health and require quite a beating to come down, C4 brings them down instantly.
- Remove or rework hunter seeker.
- Include the TS Terrain Expansion.


Infantry:

Shared:
Light Infantry
Engineer - Captures from the outside Generals style. Carries a tactical C4 to bring down unstable cliffs and bridges. (Force-fire to set a single C4 per engineer, deploy engineer to detonate C4?)

GDI:
Disc Thrower - Will start throwing discs at approaching enemies if they are in range for the disc to bounce to them. (As if they had been told to force fire at the ground.)
Medic
Jumpjet Infantry - Always flying unless told to land, improve weapon against light armor.
Ghost Stalker - Automatically targets the last unit to enter firing range as to hopefully hit multiple enemies at once.
Umigon - Made buildable as a sniper unit. (Limit 1)
Mutant Soldiers

Nod:
Rocket Infantry
Mutant Hijacker
Cyborg
Cyborg Commando
Elite Cadre

Vehicles:

Shared:
Harvester
Mobile Sensor Array
Limpet Drone - Can deploy into different types of mine, explosive(should be pretty deadly considering what it takes to set one up), EMP(same as if a mobile EMP had gone off, but destroys drone), or attach to enemy unit.
Mobile EMP
Mobile Construction Vehicle
Mobile War Factory/Fist of Nod - Give you a completely independent build tab for making two vehicles at once. (Limit 1)

GDI:
Wolverine
Titan
Armored Personnel Carrier - Carry 10 infantry at a time. (Because Orca Transport kinda makes it obsolete otherwise)
Hover Mobile Rocket Launcher - Can hover off the side of cliffs, just not back up them. (Although there could be spots it might get stuck in?)
Juggernaut
Disruptor
Mammoth Mark II

Nod:
Attack Cycle
Buggy
Tick Tank
Devils Tongue - Can shoot over slopes.
Stealth Tank
Subterranean APC
Artillery - Increase damage to pre-patched TS levels, cannot hit a moving target.
Cyborg Reaper - Trapped infantry can be harvested to gain health.
Mobile Stealth Generator
Mobile Repair Vehicle

Aircraft:

Shared:
N/A

GDI:
Orca Fighter - No more shuffling around its target, Unloads its entire payload quickly and then retreats.
Orca Bomber
Carryall
Orca Transport - Made buildable, can carry 6 infantry. Speed increased.
Dropship

Nod:
Harpy - Better damage VS infantry, no shuffling.
Banshee - Has to keep moving, but can still land on a single cell if it has the room to descend while moving forward.

Buildings: (WiP)

Tech:
Hospital - Capture and infantry will auto-heal.
Civilian Array - Gives a reveal area ability. (USA side in Generals)
Civilian Armory - Gives the ability to build mutant soldiers.
Old Construction Yard, Old Refinery, etc... - Allows GDI players to build Mammoth Tanks, Nod players to build ????

Civilian:

Shared:
Light Tower - Base defenses have increased range against units that are in the spotlight.

GDI:
Power Plant: You purchase additional turbines at the power plant itself instead of building them with your construction yard. ("Deploy" power plant to be charged $100 and wait 4 seconds till turbine appears?)
Component Towers/Upgades: They are built with the tower instead of separately. (Cost of tower added to price)
Upgradeable Radar - Use this in place of the standard radar, allow Drop Pods to be built earlier.

Nod:
Laser Fence - If two fence posts are place 3 cells apart, they become a laser gate opening and closing instantly and silently. Will turn on and destroy enemy units attempting to pass through even if a friendly unit will be destroyed.

Phrohdoh
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:30 am
Location: Dallas, TX

Post by Phrohdoh »

Being obsessed and in love with Tiberian Sun I hope to get the chance to discuss this with you on IRC because I plan on doing a lot of work for TS.

But I am against practically everything you've posted here.
This sounds a completely different TS in my opinion.

epice
Posts: 174
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:39 am

Post by epice »

Phrohdoh wrote: Being obsessed and in love with Tiberian Sun I hope to get the chance to discuss this with you on IRC because I plan on doing a lot of work for TS.

But I am against practically everything you've posted here.
This sounds a completely different TS in my opinion.
Are you implying someone is more obsessed with TS them I am!?

Why not make some suggestions instead of just saying you don't like it?

Phrohdoh
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:30 am
Location: Dallas, TX

Post by Phrohdoh »

Sorry I would have but it was a super quick post.

I don't really have suggestions at the moment (I'd rather we support it first then make changes).

But I don't like the ExternalCapture for engineers (especially not in TS/RA2).
They also should not have C4 (or maybe the C4 targeting you describe is OK).

Jumpjets (iirc) walk unless told to fly. We should not switch that around.

The Limpet Drone idea is neat but it does have a specific use. Maybe those ideas could work with our newly supported upgrades?

APC should stay at 5, that is important balance imo.
OrcaTrans will be late tech and should hold 10 passengers.

The DT shooting over slopes fix is great because its a fix.

We cannot say arty can/n't hit a moving target. What if an actor walks into the cell it is firing into?

I like the visual of the Orca Fighter shuffling but I feel it was a bit of a bug and they should act like TD's Orcas.

The "Old" structures being buildable is a big no-no to me.
The other tech is interesting but not part of the original and should come as an after thought.

Light Tower being Nod feels strange, but perhaps that will work for both.

I was wanting to integrate building upgrades at the host structure instead of conyard anyway so +1 for that.

Comp Tower including upgrades is a big no to me. (but perhaps we should be allowed to sell certain pluggables?)

I think Drop Pods should be a late-game unlock.

And finally I feel the game shouldn't magically decide what is a gate. If the player wants a gate they should place one (laser or not).
Last edited by Phrohdoh on Wed May 28, 2014 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

epice
Posts: 174
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:39 am

Post by epice »

Sorry I would have but it was a super quick post.

I don't really have suggestions at the moment (I'd rather we support it first then make changes).

But I don't like the ExternalCapture for engineers (especially not in TS/RA2).
They also should not have C4 (or maybe the C4 targeting you describe is OK).


Jumpjets (iirc) walk unless told to fly. We should not switch that around.
They would walk if you told them to move less then like 10 cells or something, there was no way to really control it. Also I suggested a force land for helicoptors so it would apply to jumpjets too.

The Limpet Drone idea is neat but it does have a specific use. Maybe those ideas could work with our newly supported upgrades?
Its kinda worthless in TS, unless we upgraded it to not give itself away so easily.

APC should stay at 5, that is important balance imo.
OrcaTrans will be late tech and should hold 10 passengers.

OrcaTrans is given with a radar, which is needed to build a helipad anyway. It can also fly right over any terrain obstacle. The APC needs to be given some extra utility to compensate. I'm open to suggestions.

The DT shooting over slopes fix is great because its a fix.
Yay!

We cannot say arty can/n't hit a moving target. What if an actor walks into the cell it is firing into?
No what I mean is its shell shouldn't hit in one spot and damage the unit its aiming at thats 3 cells away. It should apply damage to the cell the shell lands in only.

I live the visual of the Orca Fighter shuffling but I feel it was a bit of a bug and they should act like TD's Orcas.
No its got a tag in the .ini files for it. "Shuffle=Yes" or something like that. Maybe if that would actually help it avoid AA fire it would be ok but otherwise its just silly because it can actually move INTO danger from a safe spot. Either way these things are so useless it takes 8 of them to destroy a obelisk.

The "Old" structures being buildable is a big no-no to me.
The other tech is interesting but not part of the original and should come as an after thought.

NO NO NO! You got me all wrong! I mean capture-able tech buildings like the oil derrek! In TS there are graphics for old C&C buildings that are damaged and are placed on some maps.

Light Tower being Nod feels strange, but perhaps that will work for both.
Nod used them in the campaign. They don't even have to give any real bonus I'd still build them just because they look cool. Maybe they could be a garrasianable gerrisan garisian infantry can enter it structure or something.

I was wanting to integrate building upgrades at the host structure instead of conyard anyway so +1 for that.
Okay!

Comp Tower including upgrades is a big no to me. (but perhaps we should be allowed to sell certain pluggables?)

I think Drop Pods should be a late-game unlock.
Well ok need something to fill the slot of the hunter seeker anyway unless we find a way to "fix" it.

And finally I feel the game shouldn't magically decide what is a gate. If the player wants a gate they should place one (laser or not).
Wait but whats the problem? Do you just want a laser gate to be a totally separate buildable for no good reason? Its not like having a random gate somewhere would be a disadvantage if you just happened to have 2 laser fence posts 3 cells apart. Please explain yourself?

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BaronOfStuff
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Post by BaronOfStuff »

epicelite wrote: Wait but whats the problem? Do you just want a laser gate to be a totally separate buildable for no good reason? Its not like having a random gate somewhere would be a disadvantage if you just happened to have 2 laser fence posts 3 cells apart. Please explain yourself?
Erm, he did: I feel the game shouldn't magically decide what is a gate. If the player wants a gate they should place one (laser or not). Placement or creation of any structure should not be up to the game to decide, for the simple reason that it is not necessarily going to be what the player wants or where they want it. Having the fence and gate as separate structures isn't "no good reason", it's perfectly sane. Want a gate? Build one.

AgentAAA
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:56 am

Post by AgentAAA »

Honestly, I think it might be neat to have both - fully equipped towers and "pluggable" component towers available for players, to allow for a choice.
and - yeah, light towers were going to be available for both sides in the beta as well, if I recall correctly, and was the original plan, to work with the lighting system westwood was attempting to implement.

epice
Posts: 174
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:39 am

Post by epice »

BaronOfStuff wrote:
epicelite wrote: Wait but whats the problem? Do you just want a laser gate to be a totally separate buildable for no good reason? Its not like having a random gate somewhere would be a disadvantage if you just happened to have 2 laser fence posts 3 cells apart. Please explain yourself?
Erm, he did: I feel the game shouldn't magically decide what is a gate. If the player wants a gate they should place one (laser or not). Placement or creation of any structure should not be up to the game to decide, for the simple reason that it is not necessarily going to be what the player wants or where they want it. Having the fence and gate as separate structures isn't "no good reason", it's perfectly sane. Want a gate? Build one.
What is so hard to understand about this? You place the buildings in a certain configuration and they gain the ability to act as a gate. You are still building the gate just not in the traditional way. If you don't fucking want one, just don't place them in that order. Could there be a circumstance where you might have to unintentionally place them in such a way? Maybe, but its not like having a extra gate will be any kind of a disadvantage.
Also it saves the trouble of making custom graphics for such a thing.


Now here a new idea, we put in the Nod Pyramid as a buildable, and it gives a meteor storm super-weapon. (Or we can use it with the regular temple of Nod to replace the Hunter Seeker)
"Using directed electromagnetic beams meteorites can be attracted out of the upper atmosphere and directed to land in a chosen area."

GDI should get a spy camera type thing that reveals an area for a short time?

AgentAAA
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:56 am

Post by AgentAAA »

the gate might be disadvantage in that if a unit gets near it it's capable of opening. sometimes, such as when you're building near a cliff, it'd be something you get trapped into. It also means there's no extra cost to the gate, which I'm fairly against. A gate adds a lot of utility to what you're building. It should be a cost concern.
Overall, making it a separate building would make more sense.

AoAGeneral
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:58 pm

Post by AoAGeneral »

Personally, I think tightening up the bugs and smoothness of TS will help alot in its play first and foremost.

IE: The gates take 1-2 seconds to open for harvestors. This delays the harvestors in their income rates and deposits.

Seeker missiles are completely random and should have a targetable area or transform them into drop pods or some sort of A10. Releasing a seeker to have it just blow up a tank or a single rifle man just makes me go "...."

Tick Tanks should have a slight advantage when burrowed in the ground. Perhaps extra armor.

Titans should not instantly fire. This is what made GDI OP when these things walked the lands. No bullet travel or anything. If memory serves correctly, they also ignored ridges in the chance of missing their target.

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