longbow

[GeneralFrost]

right now I think for its price it's way too weak (which you see because it's almost never used, always hinds are used)

it cost 2000, so that is the price for 2 hinds.

vs infantry and light units hinds are waay better, because of lower price and they fire faster.
vs buildings both are equaliy strong.

so longbows are only good vs. tanks, but for the price of one longbow I can get 2 medium tanks + 1 rocket soldier, so that would be way more cost effective.

so my suggestions:

decrease price to like 1750$
increase the range of the missiles a little bit, and also increase damage a little bit and fire rate.

or maybe give the longbow also a machine gun, so it's like an improved hind... but I dont really like that idea.

[Speedy]

I have to agree. For flying units, the Longbow is definitely a unit that seems not quite as useful as others, due to it's limitations..

The Longbow has less firing range than the Hind, despite having a missile launcher.. and there is the fact you can't even build 'em without a Tech Center. And then there's the fact that they are indeed twice the cost of Hinds..

But.. on the other hand.. Hinds are very effective against infantry.. and.. that's it. Longbows are very effective against everything BUT infantry. Buildings, tanks.. Get a small group of longbows, and an enemy without decent air defense can lose their base in but a moment.

I personally think the only buff Longbows need is a bit more firing range. That would definitely make the other limitations null and void.

[scorp]

the only true Advantage longbows have over Hinds is their higher Speed, especially on large maps. I never us longbows i use hinds. As for usefulness aginst tanks... if you get 2 hinds for the Price of 1 Longbow, then those 2 hinds can deal with light and medium tak as well.

So either a slight price reduction or a slight range increase might be in order.



But what's weird with the Hinds is that they were initially soviet units, no?

so what i plan for myself is to assign hinds back to the soviet side anyway, and maybe find another aerial unit for the allies to be effective against infantry, like a small recon heli or an armed Transport Heli or somesuch.

[Speedy]

Yeah, Hinds used to be Soviet only, with the Longbow being the Allied heli..

Anyway, while Hinds are still useful against 'small and medium' tanks, Longbows are also effective against HEAVY tanks. And I believe I mentioned buildings in the last post..

[scorp]

Yeah, Hinds used to be Soviet only, with the Longbow being the Allied heli..

Anyway, while Hinds are still useful against 'small and medium' tanks, Longbows are also effective against HEAVY tanks. And I believe I mentioned buildings in the last post..

thought so, but my Memory is bad. Weird change of faction there IMO.


As for heavy tanks, the Mammoth will shoot down longbows, so engaging it with Helis isn't my preferred tactic. And against buildings, i also prefer hinds. While longbows fire a set amount of rockets, hinds just explete as much ammo as needed until the building is down, acting more sparingly with ammo, which is important when raiding a base. Also, buildings are often defended by rocket troopers, which the longbows don't cope well with and maybe even flak (that hinds can survive for at least a short Moment while longbows are dead meat for flak)

Summa summarum, i'm gonna have to mod longbows or helis in general a bit i think. Found a Little weirdness in the yaml's anyway, gonna have to look up what's up with that.

[Scott_NZ]

Longbow has an important distinction of being the only anti-air-capable air unit in the game. I'm pretty happy with the air balance as-is.

[GeneralFrost]

Longbow has an important distinction of being the only anti-air-capable air unit in the game. I'm pretty happy with the air balance as-is.

yeah i forgot about that. watched one replay and one player had a few medium tanks + artillery, + a few longbows that killed all the air trying to kill the artillery. was pretty nice.

still think the longbow should have a little higher range and/or be a bit cheaper

just watch some of the tournament replays, good players almost never build the longbow... that's an indication it's to expensive for it's utility

[Hiro]

Yeah I was going to mention the anti-air aspect. It is a good differentiator but really, is it worth it? Rocket troops are much more cost effective than longbows for AA. And it is true that I think only one person in the tournament matches I've watched (which I think is all of them) built any longbows.

[BaronOfStuff]

Yeah I was going to mention the anti-air aspect. It is a good differentiator but really, is it worth it? Rocket troops are much more cost effective than longbows for AA. And it is true that I think only one person in the tournament matches I've watched (which I think is all of them) built any longbows.

Cost effective? Maybe on paper, but during gameplay all sorts of factors could rear their collective ugly heads. Rocket Soldiers are horribly vulnerable units and can easily be stuffed by the majority of infantry/vehicles, can take an eternity to move into position (which is limited by terrain layout), and have a pathetic visual range. Last (but by no means least), they're also vulnerable to 'suicide' attacks from Yak/MiG aircraft (as these can and will often crash-land on Rocket Soldiers if shot down during a direct attack). Rocket Soldiers certainly have their use as AA units, but they are also riddled with weaknesses that have to be taken into consideration.

Longbows on the other hand are incredibly fast, have huge visual range, suffer no such hassle from terrain navigation (so they can guard anywhere on the map), have very little to worry about from most ground units, and bastard Yaks can't kamikaze them. They do have to travel back and forth to reload of course, but nothing's perfect (and they'd be stupidly OP if they had infinite ammo)! They do cost a hell of a lot more, yes, but if used properly they are well worth their price.

[Hiro]

Well that is very true, longbows are definitely better than rocket troops for many things, and it'd be cool to see them used. The question is then why aren't they being used? It's entirely possible that the answer is simply that the current top players haven't figured out how to use them well enough to make them worth it. I remember even starcraft 2 had seeming imba/underpowered things which magically corrected themselves when the players realised effective counter strategies or worked out how to make things work well.
However I think it's also possible that the amount of tech needed and cost per unit might be making them unfavourable for the stage of the game you can get them in. Usually by late game if you've been going for air units then the enemy will have pretty good AA coverage (or be, you know, dead and dying haha), making expensive air units quite a risk to use. Accidentally flying in range of an AA turret pretty much means bye bye 2000 credits for potentially no gain. I don't think players are liking the payoff chances. But maybe if a few more tournaments are run we'll see someone develop a strategy involving longbows that everyone will have to adopt because it's so awesome, who knows?

[GeneralFrost]

You have to consider, a unit not only has to be useful, it has to be cost-effective in order to be used by good players. If there is another unit that can achieve the same for a lower price, this unit will be used instead.

For the price of one longbow, you can get almost 7 rocket-soldiers.

And I think in most cases I would prefer having 7 rocket soliders instead of 1 longbow, or 2 medium tanks and 1 rocket soldier. yes they move slow, but the units they want to protect (mainly artillery) also moves quite slow.. so it's not that big of an issue)

The kamikaze yaks might kill a few of them.. still not as bad as losing a few longbows to some anti air because you didnt pay attention for a few seconds.

Longbows require heavy micro-management in order to be useful, they dont auto attack, and they have to reload, and avoid anti air. (also the need to reload will leave your other units vulnerable while the longbow is reloading)

Just one short moment you not paying attention, and your entire longbow force can be destroyed by just a few cheap anti air units.

Also because static anti-air is so strong, lonbows attacking bases is not really an option either, because a good oponent will just put down a few of them when he sees you making lot of air units

So my suggestion is still, increase his range a little bit and decrease price a little bit.

[Speedy]

Here's a fun scenario though.

Imagine you're playing as Allies, and your opponent is Soviet. You know there are helicopters incoming, so you decide to build anti air.

Decision 1:
Hey: I can get a whole group of Rocket units! That's good. Let's do that.. AAAaand the Hinds just shot down the entire group. Huh.

Decision 2:
Hey: I can get a Longbow. That's good. Let's do that. Aaaand the Hinds are dead, yes! Moving on~

Ofcourse this situation is unrealistic, because you're more likely to put anti-air BASE DEFENSE up, rather than getting units. But say you already have the units, and you're in the middle of the map, instead of near your base.. wouldn't the longbows outshine a group of rocket units?

Units are less or more useful depending on the situation you're in. You do not want to send a group of rocket units at Hinds. They'd be doomed. And remember, the anti-air capabilities of the Longbow mean they can actually chase other air units.

And seriously, if you're going by units vs base defense, isn't a group of rockets units literally doomed when they walk into a pillbox? 2 medium tanks with 1 rocket soldier might be great against base defense (though the soldier is kinda doomed) they still have to deal with air units that they can't handle.

Making general assumptions tend to not work. You need to keep your options open. The Longbow is a very useful unit in specific situations, and a very shitty one in others.

[epice]

I always thought it could be a cool upgrade if they had a lot faster of a firing rate, unload their entire payload in just a second or so and then "get the heck out of dodge".

[GeneralFrost]

Here's a fun scenario though.

Imagine you're playing as Allies, and your opponent is Soviet. You know there are helicopters incoming, so you decide to build anti air.

Decision 1:
Hey: I can get a whole group of Rocket units! That's good. Let's do that.. AAAaand the Hinds just shot down the entire group. Huh.

Decision 2:
Hey: I can get a Longbow. That's good. Let's do that. Aaaand the Hinds are dead, yes! Moving on~

Ofcourse this situation is unrealistic, because you're more likely to put anti-air BASE DEFENSE up, rather than getting units. But say you already have the units, and you're in the middle of the map, instead of near your base.. wouldn't the longbows outshine a group of rocket units?

Units are less or more useful depending on the situation you're in. You do not want to send a group of rocket units at Hinds. They'd be doomed. And remember, the anti-air capabilities of the Longbow mean they can actually chase other air units.

And seriously, if you're going by units vs base defense, isn't a group of rockets units literally doomed when they walk into a pillbox? 2 medium tanks with 1 rocket soldier might be great against base defense (though the soldier is kinda doomed) they still have to deal with air units that they can't handle.

Making general assumptions tend to not work. You need to keep your options open. The Longbow is a very useful unit in specific situations, and a very shitty one in others.

yeah but this is not a very realistic scenario... he wont attack you just with hinds more likely he will attack you with a mix of v2s, mammots, some rocket soldiers

vs. that your longbow is almost useless. (few mammots will kill 5-6 longbows very fast)

also when it gets hectic in battle, just one misclick and your longbow is gone.

when you watch the replays, air is most often used to kill artillery / v2s, and to increase sight range for your own artillery. base attacks not that often, because of static anti air that shuts that down easily.

and for that use a hind is just way better, because you can get 2 hinds instead of 1 longbow.

[GeneralFrost]

I always thought it could be a cool upgrade if they had a lot faster of a firing rate, unload their entire payload in just a second or so and then "get the heck out of dodge".

I think a little range increase + faster firing rate would do it. right now its just too weak for its price.