Balance thread for release 20190314

Trying to locate my missing ore trucks

Discussion about the game and its default mods.
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ZxGanon
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by ZxGanon » Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:22 am

I like most of punshos experimental changes they could be set into the next playtest.
But some I dont like or would even push a bit further:
Streamlining stealth:
Detection removed from radar domes
That makes no sense it is an intel structure it makes sense to detect stealth.
Faction changes:
Advanced chronoshift for all factions
Germany get a tank drop
1 medium tank every 5 minutes
Just testing it out I'm not sure about this one
As you said you are not too sure yourself and Id rather replace your idea with Chrono Vortex idea from FiveAces.
Balance:
Mammoth tusk missile range from 8c0 to 7c512
This doesn't really a nerf them. Most missile weapons have c512 range and this is removing an inconsistency
Many people mention to nerf speed and Turnrate of Mammoths further to weaken their immense powerlevel but I dont want to play with an immoveable object Im sorry. I also had the idea of nerfing it´s TuskMissile range (against ground) to compensate that power level. It would require to splitt the Mammoths MIssile Weapon into AG and AA to only nerf the power level as an anti infantry machine. It´s Anti Air capeablity I wouldnt touch. After all he is way too slow to hunt down any kind of Air...only if it starts attack Mammoths themselfes.

Also for the Shock Trooper I´d also change his current role as a Snowballing Infantry (The Tesla Tank should be the unit that has the possible outcome of snowballing). Out of sheer design logic the way FiveAces mentioned to change the Shockie makes the most sense.
Just like in original cutting his range to same level has Rifleman or lower but increasing his cost and HP a lot and making it uncrushable so it serves as a bruiser. A close combat anti infantry unit that does not fear crushing.
Last edited by ZxGanon on Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

eskimo
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by eskimo » Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:06 pm

I'm mostly curious about Punsho's more than anything else mentioned here, as find there to be significant changes to make the game more dynamic. Some tweaks and imbalances potentially already noticeable, but very interested in trying out as they appear minor right now.

The mini map available all game i think is a very good way to go. It reduces the skill gap between highly skilled and lower skilled players which is what this game needs to help keep its player base. Many new players go radar early to get the mini map as this was crucial in the original for slower players. The lack of minimap off radar moves away from the original game, which i think is a good move regardless.

Hitscan is an interesting concept, i'm interested how it'll interact with the visuals. But it's gameplay changes are also very interesting and could address some of those frustrating situations.

Med tank and sniper drops are an interesting concept helping allies move out of the crawly design and becoming more dynamic, as with Longbow cost reduction and other things mentioned.

It's obvious after a few years here i've seen that no one can address Allies by tweaking this here and there, while Soviets see massive changes simply due to a better design. A radical change for Allies really needs to happen, and becoming more open to Naval changes has to happen at the same time to prevent balance backtracks in the future. Consequently this will inspire map makers to do more.

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Punsho
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by Punsho » Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:09 pm

Hitscan is an interesting concept, i'm interested how it'll interact with the visuals. But it's gameplay changes are also very interesting and could address some of those frustrating situations.
There are no visual changes, only weapons that didn't have a visible projectile were made instanthit, like rifle men and hind

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Punsho
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by Punsho » Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:18 pm

Faction changes:
Advanced chronoshift for all factions
Germany get a tank drop
1 medium tank every 5 minutes
Just testing it out I'm not sure about this one
As you said you are not too sure yourself and Id rather replace your idea with Chrono Vortex idea from FiveAces.
I'm really not sure about Chrono Vortex, it's introducing a completely new mechanic to the game. When I thing about it I see it as the psionic storm form sc2, if it's slowly damages units allies get a huge advantage as they have medics, for soviets damage would be permanent also how long would it last? In sc2 most units are fast and can get out of it quicly but it's not the case in OpenRA RA. It seems as this ability would be either overpowered or useless

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Luftwaffe
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by Luftwaffe » Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:01 pm

There should be some kind of a dynamic matrix/scale calculator (cost, armor, speed, build time, reqs, etc.) in order to methodically approach any changes and balances, otherwise, it is kind of endless endeavor based on personal preferences.

The very basic units -riflemen, rockets, light vehicles appear to be as good or perhaps better in terms of return on investment/time/build-reqs when compared to advanced units which encourages "the spam" and low-tech approach to the game.

Let's suppose there is a battle between a Soviet and an Allies player where they both invested $2000. In this example, the Allies player needs barracks to produce 6 rocket soldiers plus 2 riflemen vs Ref-WF-SD-TC- required for a Mammoth tank. Note the total investment and the build time/building reqs were much higher to produce a Mammoth (of course there are other benefits to these buildings but just assume some fractional cost allocated).

I have actually made a simulation map with this exact example where the tank was surrounded by these 8 soldiers. The Mammoth killed only one rocket and one rifle while getting fried and surviving soldiers got a rank promotion. I believe 2 medium tanks (2x$850) would also win a battle vs one Mammoth and so on.


Tanya should not die to an Ore Truck. 6 MIGs out of 8 should not die to a single AA gun and so on. (Maybe damaged to 80% or something like that)
/Endless topic/
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Upps
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by Upps » Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:56 pm

We cant balance the current release, thats why we have to balance the next one. If we dont know what will changed with the next releases we will start again and again.

Many ideas written down or testing out on own balanced maps etc. Everyone has some good ideas and thougts what can changed, I will just add some additional ideas.

MGG: Let the Player activate or turn off the shroudgenerator when every the player it wants with F I see this by Orb some months ago.

MRJ: Give him the abillity to activate with F a function to increase the Rocket Jammer for a short periode with a cooldown to hunt easier mammoth with maybe cheaper Longbows down.

Thief: decline the ability to steal Oretrucks its to power full. Its one thing you lost a Ortruck its another thing when you know the enemy will use him now to out macro you. If you want a exampel with no high Tier Players then watch the Season 7 recruits Alfa match Malboo v Fruttielicious
on Warwind its really sad to watch if you ask me is this what the Playerbase want? Cripple down by Thiefs?

Ok thats just what can changed based on this Relase. But thats doesnt changed problems which player have with the gamemechanics.
Thats why i go the other way and write down what are the problems which we the playerbase have with the gamemechanics.

IC/Chronosphere: Who doesnt hate it you play a good match, but you missfire two times the IC? Or you want to Chrono some tanks, but your vehicel dont want to get the perfect + formation? Thats why I think it would be better when you select some Units and then you press a button or a key to Chrono/ IC. If you have more units selected which you can IC/Chrono then a rng will deal with it.

Yaks: The Yak code need a rework. When I attackmove on a army they will attack some units on the way and then they turn arround to finish the a unit because they didnt kill them. My idea when you attackmove let they empty their ammo on everything on the way of the attackmove they doesnt have to care about if their target unit is dead or not.

(and for the fun or some experiments)
If the Yakcode get a rework maybe give them the ability to crash Hinds/Longbows you deosnt have to activate it immediately, but player can test arround if this maybe a nice possibility to counter Hinds with some other balance changes like a weak LT AA etc.

Thats just a few things and I have some other ideas to, but its enough for now.

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WhoCares
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by WhoCares » Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:32 am

suggested by orb on discord and actually make sense :

Move thief radar dome dependant.

*delay early ore truck stealing except if the player take the risk to go dome first over sd.
*make possibility to early tech and try to steal your ennemy's first mcv.

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Clockwork
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by Clockwork » Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:09 am

My main grievances with the game right now are that Allies are heading to the fate of the 2017 Soviets. For all you newer players, the 2017 Soviets were the most memed upon thing in RA when I first started which spawned such satire such as viewtopic.php?f=82&t=20032&hilit=faction+pick from myself or this Master's player being interviewed prior to RAGL S3 viewtopic.php?f=82&t=20049&hilit=interviewed (Video: https://videobin.org/+hea/lfa.ogg).

We have a problem. Orb's changes to Allies were mostly good but Soviets are still getting stronger by the day. Soviets right now are really fun to use. They're super good and people love them despite being the more micro and macro demanding of the two. However allies are more stalematey, boring and usually one dimensional without much customisability in how you play. Now like in plastic surgery, we have one good boob and one bad boob. We can either make both good boobs or both bad boobs and I know which one you males prefer ;) .

I propose buffing the Allies for more fun and customisable gameplay on the level but asymmetric to the Soviets. This is partly already being tinkered with Punsho's balance changes which I'm a big fan of but I feel there are stronger changes needed. This way both factions are fun and we can also use ZXGanon's preferred method of balancing as well - buff the ever living sh*t out of everything! If they're both op then they can't be right :D ?

The main problem of allies vs soviets in my opinion (as an Allies main in competitive play) is they are bad at big assault attacks but are level with soviets with harassment style mini attacks. Which explains why Allies have such a horrible stalemate play most of the time.

Firstly, to make allies attacking capabilities stronger, the medium tank needs a HP boost because it is a paper tank. It should still be a lot weaker than the heavy tank though. The German medium tank from unplugged was perfect in my opinion and felt way better than the current medium tank.

The light tank needs a rework and I think the solution is just giving it more HP. I'm thinking the same as or a bit below the APC. Or the more radical change which is a bit of a two birds with one stone; use Barfs proposed idea of giving the light tank a weak AA and with this particular change however there needs to be a big nerf to AA guns, if that will ever arrive :D .

Make the mechanics cost to 350 from 500. The bad boys take way too long to build.

Don't touch the GPS please for the love of the beholder.

German Chronosphere to everyone!

Furthermore the balance changes to the specific allies factions specified in Punsho's changes.

And the following changes to Soviets:

Kill the IC duration time down or increase the time intervals in-between. This thing dominates late game and it is absurd.

Rework the dog as Allies have no responce to an oils battle when double ref vs double ref with a Soviet player using correct dog micro. The loss of the oils, momentum, map control, and early hand over of game pace dictation is too powerfull. Changes outlined by Punsho's Balance Changes also. Moves the dog into a high hp mini tank for early rifle battles and with much harder micro can achieve the same effect which is justified.

Make the Sam Site stronger some more because it's still slightly too bad.

Reduce the range of tesla coil a tiny bit (maybe a cell). More of a personal change I just think theyre snipers.

SirCake
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by SirCake » Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:53 am

Allies have may fun tools, they aren’t “boring”.

The problem is that the standard units (aka med tank, rocket, rifle, hind) are too good. Everything else pales in comparison.

For example MRJ has a serious weakness against rifles etc.
Hind has way too much ammo. One clip on rifle infantry justifies the cost.
Rockets make any other infantry look like weak uselees pixels.
Pillboxes and AA, ohmygod. waaaaay better than a shroud tower.

lawANDorder
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by lawANDorder » Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:41 pm

Upps wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:56 pm
We cant balance the current release, thats why we have to balance the next one. If we dont know what will changed with the next releases we will start again and again.
Just as information for those who don't know: the development for the next release is tracked by the "Next Release" milestone which holds things that are either intended to be fixed/added or are already fixed/merged for next release. There also is an experimental roadmap where people summarize their plans. IMO the problem you describe does not result from a lack of transparency or information. It just takes time to discover what needs to be done wrt balance. If there is a productive early discussion - like here - that results in a set of balance changes and participation in later (official) playtests, we might be able to react quicker to what development brings with reasonable balance changes and ideally can include them in the next release instead of Next + 1. This really all depends on contributions from the player base, a healthy environment and the willingness to compromise. And IMO it is looking good atm.

camundahl
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by camundahl » Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:58 pm

Both factions should have dogs.

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avalach21
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by avalach21 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:43 pm

hi guys.. it's that time of year again. I'm back to share an important message: the hind should be returned to the soviets, along with a transport copter! I wish people would have an open minded discussion of a proper way to bring this iconic unit back to its rightful place. The OpenRA community has overcome many challenges and I think it's silly to just accept it is impossible to balance this sort of change.

Lol anyways, moving on, I'd like to share some of my thoughts on the topics brought up by Smitty & others:

MGG -

I can't remember who first came up with this idea (it wasn't me) as I read it here like a year or two ago, but I thought it was a simple, effective solution that is also quite true to the original game. Apparently Upps says Orb came up with this idea but anyways:

The MGG should simply be able to deactivate and reactivate its shrouding with the press of the deploy key. When the deploy key is pressed, the black blob will turn off and the little magnet will stop spinning. If you want to turn it back on, simply press the deploy key again, the magnet spins, and the black blob reappears. This way you can bring an attack against your enemy without exposing that you are moving across the map, but then turn it on right before the attack begins to annoy them and cover up your army. You could also use it to create distractions & make your enemy believe your army is in one place when it really is at another. It should definitely be a bit cheaper though.. perhaps even make it a unique german faction unit to replace advanced chrono shift

Chronosphere/Chrono Vortex -

Which yes I agree with everyone, advanced chronoshift should become the norm. IC is OP vs Chrono IMO, especially the non-advanced version. It's also a super lazy/boring unique faction trait. I am against the idea of having a separate Chrono Vortex ability or whatever... The chrono vortex should be just as it was in the original, a random blob that appears when the chronosphere is used excessively. I would raise the % chance it appears drastically if someone chronos MCVs and leaves them deployed as they are seriously abusing the chronosphere's power. Pchote already implemented this to an extent with a guaranteed 50% penalty to the Con Yard when left deployed, but I'd like to see this idea go even further into creating a loose chrono vortex that roams around for a bit.

Shock Troopers -

If anyone is familiar with my general viewpoints, I am generally a "purist" and want to see OpenRA try to reflect the original source material as much as possible (i.e. Hind going to Soviets) but a rare instance where I will deviate is on Shock troopers being uncrushable... To me I always thought that was weird... how does that make any sense? What is so special about strapping a battery backpack on and carrying a trident that you suddenly can't be run over? I would love if anyone had any sort of logical explanation of why this was ever the case, but based on how it makes no sense and also the implications it would have on balance, I am against this.

MAD Tank -

I'm a little confused by Smitty's stance on this as he says that the MAD tank MUST retain its core feature... "Mutually Assured Destruction" yet then goes on to say that it's self destruct trait should be removed... Am I missing something or did you just directly contradict yourself? I agree with your first stance... it should definitely be true to its name and also its original function as much as possible, but I strongly disagree that it shouldn't assure it's own destruction as well (it is mutual after all).

Five Aces idea for MAD tank sounds amazing to be honest:
MAD tank:
This is the big one. No other unit in OpenRA deserves a complete rework more than this abomination. The idea I had 2 years ago but lacked the coding skills to properly implement was as follows: Keep the base idea of a self-damaging earthquake tank, but make it a unit that takes skill to use. How so? First off, it can now deploy and undeploy. A deployed MAD tank will start pumping out shockwaves, but be damaged in the process (around 3% health per second). Shockwaves will affect all actors, foe and friend alike (keeping in line with the theme of mutually assured destruction), in a ~9 cell range: Buildings will take continuous damage; vehicles will be slowed and infantry will go prone. To counteract self-destruction, one would have to unsiege the MAD before it blows up. An undeployed tank would start regenerating health out of combat (again, around 3% per second). This would turn it into a siege unit that can singlehandedly push down bases when supported and used properly. One more interesting trait would be that it can't be used in conjunction with basepushes (since it will, well, level your own base), which promotes army-centric gameplay.
I'm def not 100% sold on it repairing itself... I think I'm on board with it being able to undeploy but also not sure about that either. I def like the vehicles being slowed and infantry going prone tho.. really nice touch.

The only other thing I might suggest about MAD tanks is perhaps on top of Five Ace's recommend changes.. put a build cap on them. Maybe only allow 1 at a time as they are INSANELY powerful in team games. Even if it means giving them a solid buff, I think you'd see them used more, even with a limit. You can chrono and IC a couple MAD tanks into someones base and there is pretty much 0 way to counter ur entire base getting leveled.

GPS -

Alright first things first... the GPS countdown timer should absolutely not be publically advertised. We see people complaining that too much low tech spam play, cookie cutter strats, no one uses advanced tech units etc etc. I agree that it's kind of sad we see an overabundance of one-dimensional spammy low tech play, so I don't understand why we just raw-dawg punish people who dare to tech by advertising it to their opponent and totally give it away. You are getting outright punished for Teching and I think the GPS countdown should be visible to yourself/teammates only.

I'm also not super big on drastically nerfing or changing the GPS... it has always been a powerful tool. RA2 only re-enforces that Allies should have a very powerful map exposing tool in their arsenal with the spy sat uplink. I don't like the suggestions of having it be a timed thing as its pretty much just turning it into a glorified spyplane... The whole point is that it is a passive intelligence buff for the Allies with minimal/no micro required.

If people really think it needs a nerf or change, here is my suggestion:

Instead of revealing the entire map, have it reveal however many tiles ~1 screen's worth (@1080p with no pixel doubling or scaling, or whatever size you guys think is fair) permanently with no countdown or timed exposure or anything. What I then would suggest is allowing periodic "re-positioning" of the satellite, so you could then chose a different ~1 screen's worth of area to expose, and the satellite would have to slowly drift over to expose that area. I'm not even sure the re-positioning action would require a cooldown.. you could just reposition it at will whenever you want, but you'd still only have a limited area exposed, and it would still take time for the satellite to drift to its new location. Another option would be to have it instantly switch positions to a new location with no "drift" but it would have to be on a cooldown timer as to when you could re position it (maybe every couple minutes?)

Factions -

I agree that the Advanced Chronoshift and British Spy are lame as hell and boring. I already touched above that Advanced Chronoshift should be available to all Allied players. Perhaps a buffed mobile gap generator can become the german unique unit as it would fall in line with their high/experimental tech trait. My thought for the British spy has always been to have it take on functions more similar to the Spy from RA1.. giving you intel on the opposing player (current power level, current funds/income, currently queued units, current countdown timers etc). Perhaps instead of being cheaper, it should be more expensive but have these added functions on top of his current ones. A British sniper sounds cool and all, and at least it has some basis in RA2, but to some extent it seems like it may be a bit too much of a departure from the original game and could introduce a lot of balance implications. I'm open minded to it but a bit hesitant in my expectations that it would work out.

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MlemandPurrs
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by MlemandPurrs » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:09 pm

As for MAD Tank, maybe can be good idea to make it thump the ground less and more delay between each thump but each thump to be more powerful so it can used like sort of an burst damage versus buildings

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Fahrrad
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by Fahrrad » Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:54 pm

give hinds back to Russia!

SirCake
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by SirCake » Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:23 pm

Rar-rar-rar-rar-rassija!!


(If you are not getting this you haven't been playing OpenRA for long ;) be so-scared )

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