Towards a new custom balance for Red Alert (RTS)

[Yara]

This thread is supposed to collect theoretical and practical ideas that may help us to find a better balance.

For now, this the thread can be viewed as a dumping ground for everything related to RTS balance.
The sorting, the prioritization and analysis will happen at a later date.

Once it seems like a "good balance", I will try to implement it by myself. But I have 0 idea how long that will take. Don't get too excited as my private time is not unlimited.

Future title: <undefined>
Future Implementation Type: unclear, could be both, via a mod map or a new client. But I strongly prefer mod map custom balance as of today.

Who can contribute?
Anyone

Will this replace the current balance of Red Alert?
No, "custom" means it will be a completely separate balance, in contrast to the existing one. There are no plans to replace the existing one. And even if I was asked I would be against it, as it is important the existing balance stays somewhat close the original game, as this is what everyone would expect when they install this game for the first time.

[Yara]

Motivation & Goal
The motivation of this new custom balance is explore new ideas and hopefully make this game more interesting.
Can this "old" basic game of Red Alert be reinvented in a way that new ideas from other RTS games can be integrated?

Why a new balance?
For me personally, I find the current balance gets boring after a while. It feels like it is too much optimized for macro-play. The pay-off for good Micro is too little. Games get too spammy. Also I find it sad that any kind of cheese-play got nerfed into oblivion. This make the game less interesting for me. The fact that 2ref-strat is the dominant strategy these days is also sad. Even wf-first got nerfed out. The game seems to be also optimized for 1v1 and feedback from the team-game side is not being taken seriously or upfront being ignored as "not important enough".

Overall, I think the new innovative path the Combined Arms took should be followed by a new custom balance for Red Alert. No idea should be forbidden and everything should be tested to make this game more interesting and to hopefully also raise the "skill-ceiling" a bit.

Feedback 1: "Please don't copy Combined Arms (CA)"
Response 1: "Why would I want to copy CA? I would like to take out the good ideas of CA and add them to some kind of custom balance with obviously less factions and units. I am neither planning to copy it or to replace it with anything. I will continue playing CA, I hope that community continues growing."

Why is it so hard to find a balance that works for everyone


Limits
In theory, there should be no limits. If it makes sense to exchange units between Allies and Soviet, I am going to do that. Add new buildings? sure. 3rd Faction? sounds fun. Research tree? why not.

Technically, some limits may arise, as I prefer to look into what is possible by creating a Map-based Game Balance.
I highly doubt I have the energy or time to create a new game client.

[Yara]

First ideas


# despro: limit queues
# happy: double unit prices
# maybe multiqueue (maybe limit buildings to avoid mass spam from 10 WFs)
# yara: add research tree
# unano: give migs aa ability
# yara: learn from Combined Arms's innovative path
# orb: reduce wf price to 1500, put it back on 7 scaling
# punsho You can make starting cash be 10k, then the choice between wf first and double ref wouldn't be so obvious. It's also the standard in other CnC's
# ganon: while implementing cmeback mechanics that dont feel like a one push resett button
nor a random dice throw
(...)
there must be some randomness
there must be comeback mechanics
but they must be implemented well
(...)
no hidden dynamics
(...)
RTS games should generalize designs as much as possible to not feel random or add unecessary complexity
while still putting a lot of emphasis into designing each faction properly to be different
to feel and play different
# despro stuff need "visual clues"



# yara: What do people think about multi queue production? Yay or nay?
## Orb: nay, that would require a whole balance rework. Also I think there is an appeal to the simplicity of RA macro
## anjey: It’s simplicity is what makes it not simple IMO. It’s been figured out. Don’t stop making infantry.


Useful blog posts:
https://www.gamedeveloper.com/design/th ... tegy-games

https://waywardstrategy.com/2016/11/17/ ... can-learn/

https://www.gamedev.net/forums/topic/68 ... t-balance/


Scientific papers:
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/7364236
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/5035625

[Yara]

possible blocker