Just wanted to say you did it

I won't even download the new update

Discussion about the game and its default mods.
abcdefg30
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Re: Just wanted to say you did it

Post by abcdefg30 » Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:08 pm

Saying that "mammooth" tanks underperformed in the last release is just ridiculous. I suppose you've never even played a game online. 0/8 bait.

A bit offtopic but still: I think a faster release cycle will at least mitigate the "playtesting problem" somewhat.

weeman
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Re: Just wanted to say you did it

Post by weeman » Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:54 pm

Seems like this release was 100% tailored for the 1v1 community, which I get they are the ones who use the playtest the most. The rest of us who don't play it we can now provide feedback, I don't get whats the problem with that.

My two cents is that this really sucks for new folks. It's confusing enough to explain production boost, now you have to tell them certain units don't receive that boost.This REALLY sucks for people who enjoy production boosted mammoths, ie stex.

Seemed like the late game balance was fine to me and if it was such a problem in 1v1 bouts.... why not pick sovs if their was such a clear advantage. If you are getting to the point of making production boosted mammoths in 1v1 well shit you deserve to win.

For the folks who don't want to fuss with 1v1 community (they are kind of assholes) this kinda blows for everyone else. Literally for all but 12 people who play the game. If this is the direction that openRA wants to head so be it, pandering to the 1v1 community. I think we were warned exactly of this situation by late devs who decided to step away from the game.

lawANDorder
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Re: Just wanted to say you did it

Post by lawANDorder » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:00 pm

Let's keep it civil. At the end we all want to make the game better, so lets fight with arguments for our visions rather than with insults because this is just not productive.

weeman
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Re: Just wanted to say you did it

Post by weeman » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:11 pm

I don't care either way for the actual changes made in this release. My gripes are minor. I am majorly concerned with all feedback being obtained from RAGL sessions and people who do not speak for 95% of games being played in a given day on openra.

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Sleipnir
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Re: Just wanted to say you did it

Post by Sleipnir » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:23 pm

weeman wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:54 pm
It's confusing enough to explain production boost, now you have to tell them certain units don't receive that boost.
There seems to be some misunderstanding here - the change was to fix the relationship between cost and production time. In the last release a mammoth tank ($2000) would build faster than 4 x Rangers ($2000) because it (and most, but not all, T3 units) had an artificial bonus that made it produce faster. They should now take the same amount of time. This change makes production easier to explain, not harder.

This has nothing to do with the boost from having multiple production structures, which still applies to all units.

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Luftwaffe
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Re: Just wanted to say you did it

Post by Luftwaffe » Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:13 am

ZxGanon wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:51 pm
Comments from topic creator and luftwaffe are just showing perfectly that a lot of words do not equal substance.

But I can kinda see where pointbreak is coming from and yes soviets got a lot of nerfs on the first glance but most changes where done to improve unit behaviours aka the Mig change.

Also I agree with WhoCares and Netnazgul on Luftwaffe. Just either start properly contributing or go be stupid somewhere else.
Actually, your comments show insults and no substance. I don't understand why do you insult me every time I post something? I did give feedback on mammoth nerfing early in the cycle (where you also insulted me) and now you're coming back to create yet another drama and turn this thread into a quarrel. People like you are the reason why is the player base dwindling and the regular players are leaving the community after each release. So you should go be stupid somewhere else and spare this thread of your ill-intended comments, literally every time you open your mouth only sh*t pours out.

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anjew
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Re: Just wanted to say you did it

Post by anjew » Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:52 am

weeman wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:11 pm
I am majorly concerned with all feedback being obtained from RAGL sessions and people who do not speak for 95% of games being played in a given day on openra.
Then the players of 95% of those games should become involved in the community. There is an IRC, a github, this forum and even a discord. I dont see any of your feedback/suggestions in these channels? Are the people implementing changes meant to just read everyones mind and understand what everyone wants?

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WhoCares
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Re: Just wanted to say you did it

Post by WhoCares » Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:50 am

weeman wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:54 pm
Seemed like the late game balance was fine to me and if it was such a problem in 1v1 bouts.... why not pick sovs if their was such a clear advantage. If you are getting to the point of making production boosted mammoths in 1v1 well shit you deserve to win.
Wow, that statement is priceless.
weeman wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:54 pm
Seemed like the late game balance was fine to me
but
weeman wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:54 pm
why not pick sovs if their was such a clear advantage.
So a balanced late game for you is determine that a faction is clearly better and always use it ? Nice !
weeman wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:54 pm
you are getting to the point of making production boosted mammoths in 1v1 well shit you deserve to win.
As your sentence here demonstrates you understood nothing about that topic, you better go do some reading and testing before trying to complain for free.

If more people from teamgame wants to give feedback, Please, give us replays where something is clearly broken or makes the game totally unfun to play. But try to avoid the cliche "Oh you nerf my op unit I used to spam because it is easy, that sucks".

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netnazgul
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Re: Just wanted to say you did it

Post by netnazgul » Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:56 pm

lawANDorder wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:11 pm
netnazgul wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:38 am
In any case, playtesting doesn't have much in common with just "start a playtest version and wait on a server for a game". One also needs to understand how the game works, research what works and what might be improved, present all that in a constructive manner and get in contact with people who do actual code updates. Even an issue post on project's github might be a good start, obviously getting in conversation on OpenRA Discord is better in terms of presenting raw points and brainstorming the problems.
Thanks. I'll remember that in 2020 when writing the next >150 pull request reviews and submitting another ~100 issues like this year. Disclaimer: I don't care about the numbers or your appreciation, however i can't deny comments like this and being confronted with sheer ignorance is somewhat demotivating.

TL;DR: Whatever.
I've re-read the thread several times to try to understand what am I being accused here of and why.
@lawandorder I didn't understand at all how your words correlate in a negative manner to what I have said. I didn't accuse you in anything, nor did I ignore you in anything, the paragraph on playtesting was aimed at saying just that simply playing the playtest version isn't enough to contribute to the balance. Also it wasn't aimed at you either. This is not the first time I'm completely baffled with your reaction, and to me it seems either something is lost in translation and we don't understand each other properly, or you have some kind of grudge on me I don't know of.

[Speaking for RA mod now, can't say much regarding TD]
Yes, understandably "1v1 meta" is prevalent when balance is concerned. This is the most active part of the community unless I'm unaware of any teamgame-targeted communities for OpenRA that are not present on official Discord or forums. Some players are also involved in playing 2v2s and teamgames as well.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but teamgames playerbase looks a bit self-isolated in this regard, just playing between themselves and not connecting to project development. For me personally, I just see infrequent remarks of "everything is imbalanced, you did it completely wrong, I quit" like the one in OP.

Comments like "you completely ruined Mammonth tanks with these nerfs" question the credibility of the whole report when there was a lot of discussions and playing material analyzed over Mammonths being overpowered, set against this comment that doesn't even fortified with any evidence.

upd: yes, I remember luftwaffe's attempt at showing why Mammonths are underpowered, and I remember it was denied by not being correct and applying to the actual game. So yeah, there was evidence.

goat
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Re: Just wanted to say you did it

Post by goat » Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:26 pm

Luftwaffe wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:14 am
There was ABSOLUTELY but ABSOLUTELY no need for this one: >Reduced production speed bonus from high-tech units (Mammoth Tank, Tesla Tank, Mobile Gap Generator, Mobile Radar Jammer, Chrono Tank, Phase Transport, MiG, Longbow, Missile Submarine, Cruiser)< This by itself really ruins the game completely. Mammoths were reduced to almost heavy tank specs and then fixed to 42 seconds of production time? Come on, someone really lacks common sense.

This is the ultimate 1v1, low-tech OpenRA version, just make infantry and light tanks and spam spam spam.
MIGs seem to be but a total waste of resources, nobody will use them, just take them out completely and mammoths too.
This seems really reactionary.

I sincerely doubt this change will have any real impact on the meta whatsoever.
We will most likely still see high-tech units as often as we do now.

As for the mammoth it is still a really strong unit and people are still spamming them (as of right now at least).
I also have absolutely no idea how you managed to compare it to a heavy tank when what really makes the mammoth such a strong unit are the tusk missiles.

Overall soviets late game got nerfed because their late game was way stronger than allies and even with this nerf their late game is still stronger.

Could you please explain how these changes negatively impact the balance in teamgames because I honestly do not see it.

I think it's fair to have a concern than the game is turning more and more into a low tech spam fest but I personally do not see these changes resulting in that - especially not for teamgames.
I'd like also to mention that I think it is important that both low tech and high tech are viable strategies - not in the sense that an 10k low tech army should beat a 10k high tech army, but more so in the sense that it shouldn't just turn into a tech rushing meta and maybe I am misunderstanding you but the impression I am getting is that you believe tech should always be the way to go.

goat
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Re: Just wanted to say you did it

Post by goat » Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:28 pm

Oh and MIGs have been used quite a lot lately actually

lawANDorder
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Re: Just wanted to say you did it

Post by lawANDorder » Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:50 pm

@netnazgul It was a misunderstanding.

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zypres1
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Re: Just wanted to say you did it

Post by zypres1 » Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:57 pm

The airstrike/paradrop postiion really buffs Soviets....

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