Naval in an ideal world?

Discussion about the game and its default mods.
eskimo
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Naval in an ideal world?

Post by eskimo » Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:06 pm

Quite simply, what does Naval look like in an ideal world of RA?

Grab your chronosphere and tell me what it looks like.

Question is short, context is open, as i'd not like to restrict people's thought processes.

Thanks

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Upps
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Re: Naval in an ideal world?

Post by Upps » Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:20 pm

It would be nice to have a tileset which ground units and naval units can cross, without destroying bridges etc.

lawANDorder
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Re: Naval in an ideal world?

Post by lawANDorder » Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:32 pm

Airsubs. If only penev didn't block 'em ;)

Strauss
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Re: Naval in an ideal world?

Post by Strauss » Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:45 pm

The vision the game's going for I think is right, although it's not exactly ideal yet.

In my ideal world, naval units are support that's effective but not game shattering. They are great in small numbers but uneconomical to spam. They don't burst enough to wreck a game when they remain unscouted but they aren't weak enough so you can leave them pummeling your base. Subs would be more efficient at naval combat than ships, but worse as support units. Basically, naval units would act as force multipliers that can help from afar in a fight relyably.

Since you said 'ideal', I'll throw in a few things that don't seem feasable with the way naval combat is set up:
-Land units should be at least a preliminary way to counter naval. If you get bombarded by a missile sub, it would be great if your current army would be able to do something against it, that way the missile sub can be justified to have more oomph.
-There should be some more micro potential in naval units. Don't ask me how though.
-More than two units per faction'd be neat, some small, fast boats maybe

Blackened
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Re: Naval in an ideal world?

Post by Blackened » Sat Sep 14, 2019 4:38 am

This is simple to me.

In an ideal world there are 3 types of maps. Maps without naval, maps with some naval, maps centered around naval. First one obviously doesn't need to be talked about. The 2nd map is a map where land/air are the primary methods of engagements. Naval is not needed but can prove effective if invested into. As games go into the late game naval is just another branch players take to try and win out over their opponent. Or as another example a player decides a cheeky naval rush of sorts that the opponent doesn't scout/predict and such action puts him ahead in the game. Naval in these maps can be a tad gimmicky if say there are isolated puddles in which people build cruisers/missile subs to bombard a well protected area. Or they could be a map where naval battles are just another "lane" for players to fight through.

Maps centered around naval battles play differently. Some limited land engagements can happen but these type of maps are all about the water. Water becomes like the land of regular maps. multiple lanes with key areas to control. Losing the naval battle means you will lose the game but getting forced out of the water isn't as simple as subs locking down shipyards being built or destroyers camping the water. In this world there exists some reasonable and non expensive way to negate this.

How is any of this possible? well the 2nd one can be done with the current assets in the game if naval was appropriately researched and vetted and tested and retested and players actually gave a damn. This requires honestly probably a year+ of revisions and dedication both by developer and players alike.

However, pure naval maps cannot be done by simple re calibrations and alterations of existing assets. You simply can't have a robust and fun to play map with 6 different types of main purpose units. It just ain't possible. You can add in air as support which brings it up to a max of 11 but that still isn't anywhere near as robust as regular land gameplay. land game play revolves around tanks/rifles/rockets. But you also don't only build those every single game ever. You have engis and rangers and flaks and mammoths etc. etc. etc. There is diversity. That is not to mention that in regular matchups you build a slew of different buildings as well. In naval with what we have you really only need 6 buildings.

So how do naval maps become a reality? Through modding of course and since we're in total fantasy land now we are free to think of a bunch of stuff. here's a list of just some random ideas:
some buildings can be built on water like RA3. Ore mines can be found on water like RA3 too.
Soviets drop the sub pen for a shipyard of some sort giving soviets a more logical building of which ships are made from.
Allies also get different types of ships.
soviet vs soviet games have counter measures appropriate to subs much in the same way that tank shield+provide vision for infantry. No longer is it two subs running into each other and mutually killing each other because they can't dodge and shoot at the same time. No longer do missile subs get LOL'd by subs because they are LITERALLY TOO SLOW TO DODGE A TORPEDO OR RUN AWAY.
a few more tiles would need to be added as well. bridges with crossable water underneath, shallows that allow all types of units to cross (think age of empires where a knight is attacking a wooden ship but instead its a grenadier throws grenades at a sub.)
ice flows would also be able to be passed under by subs but not ships.

Strauss
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Re: Naval in an ideal world?

Post by Strauss » Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:42 am

Blackened wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 4:38 am
In this world there exists some reasonable and non expensive way to negate this.
Sounds like defenses buildable on water or at least under water mines.

Blackened
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Re: Naval in an ideal world?

Post by Blackened » Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:40 am

defenses buildable on water probably would help. I don't think mines would. you need a way to get back into the water after you get forced out.

lawANDorder
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Re: Naval in an ideal world?

Post by lawANDorder » Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:17 pm

Another option would be to add buildable 1x1 floats on which you can build defences. Then all the existing defences could be placed upon the float. Doesn't really help against subs though. A helicopter with torpedos could be a nice addition, but would probably not be mergable for the official RA mod.

Strauss
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Re: Naval in an ideal world?

Post by Strauss » Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:13 pm

I think a anti-naval-only 'torpedo' defense would be preferable to the ability to place all existing defenses on the water to be honest. I think the idea of being able to put a tesla coil out into the water where only the edges of your infantry blob can reach it, but itself being able to still reach a sizable chunk onto the shore would be a pretty weird dynamic.

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Super_Newbie
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Re: Naval in an ideal world?

Post by Super_Newbie » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:11 pm

Make it so all infantry can swim!



(joking)
LOL! Check out my signature! Neat eh?

Ronald
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Re: Naval in an ideal world?

Post by Ronald » Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:07 am

What does Naval look like in an ideal world of RA?
Hello Eskimo,
Nice question you post here, which certainly brings a lot of potential thoughts / answers to my mind.
Question is short, context is open, as i'd not like to restrict people's thought processes.
I'd first like to know a bit more about your context of this "ideal world of RA":
What exactly do you mean by this:
1 - "RA" as in (Westwoods Studios) Red Alert (1, 2, Yuri's revenge, 3, Uprising) storyline?
2 - "RA" as in the Red Alert Mod on the OpenRA game-engine?
3 - "RA" as in any type of mod running on the OpenRA game-engine?
>>
4 - Does this Naval has to fit into an existing WestWood game /OpenRa Mod?
>>

lawANDorder
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Re: Naval in an ideal world?

Post by lawANDorder » Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:23 pm

Hi Ronald, I'm pretty sure eskimo aimed the question at OpenRA's RA and intentionally didn't impose the restriction upon answers of having to fit into any universe. Even if they don't fit, the ideas here could inspire other (map)mods, too, or just be interesting to read.

eskimo
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Re: Naval in an ideal world?

Post by eskimo » Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:46 pm

lawANDorder wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:23 pm
Hi Ronald, I'm pretty sure eskimo aimed the question at OpenRA's RA and intentionally didn't impose the restriction upon answers of having to fit into any universe. Even if they don't fit, the ideas here could inspire other (map)mods, too, or just be interesting to read.
In response to Ronald, yeah LawANDorder would be right. I left the question with no restrictions so people didn't feel obliged to meet any consensus that could limit their response, in regards to OpenRA: Red Alert. But that's not fully limited as brain storming ideas into Tiberium Dawn naval would also be an interesting concept.

Ronald
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Re: Naval in an ideal world?

Post by Ronald » Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:54 pm

eskimo wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:46 pm
In response to Ronald, yeah LawANDorder would be right. I left the question with no restrictions so people didn't feel obliged to meet any consensus that could limit their response, in regards to OpenRA: Red Alert. But that's not fully limited as brain storming ideas into Tiberium Dawn naval would also be an interesting concept.
Thanks Eskimo for the feedback. Let's see what I can come up with. Stay tuned.. :-)

Ronald
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Re: Naval in an ideal world?

Post by Ronald » Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:40 am

Here is my 2 cents on how "Naval can be in an ideal world"

1 - Inside "Westwood Red Alert 1 spirit"
No idea yet, since have not been playing RA1 or RA2 not in recent years.

=======================================================================================================
2 - inside the "Red Alert Mod on the OpenRA engine"
To keep it within the current scope/ context / "spirit" here is my new unit design philosophy:
- Create a (surface / underwater) units equal to existing land or air units, so every transport / weapons capacity becomes fully available on all OpenRA battlefield dimensions (Air, Land, Sea and Underwater)

Examples of this principle:
- Both : Nuclear Missile Silo(Land) - B2 / TU160 bomber(Air) - ????(Sea) - ICMB submarine (under water)
- Allies : Jeep(land) - Yak(air) - Speedboat (water) - Scout-sub (underwater)
- Soviet: APC (land) - Chinook(air) - Transport(water) - Mini-sub (underwater)

=======================================================================================================
Allies - Surface fleet:
Hovercraft (as fast massive troop/vehicle transporter, like the LCAC's from CNC1)
https://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_disp ... 4&tid=1500

Aircraft Carriers which are land-able by:
- Helicopters (such as infantry transporters or anti submarine choppers)
http://www.military-today.com/navy/top_ ... _ships.htm

- Fast Jets (such fleet defenders or sea-to-land assault jets)
https://www.navy.mil/navydata/ships/car ... v-list.asp


Allies - Underwater fleet:
Submarines as Troop transporters (like special forces minsubs)
https://wonderfulengineering.com/us-nav ... apability/

Submarines as Submarine-to-submarine hunters
https://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_disp ... =4&tid=100

Submarines as ICBM missile submarines ("Nuke subs")
https://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_disp ... d=200&ct=4

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Soviets - Surface fleet:
Transport sea-plane (both factions)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lun-class_ekranoplan

Mine sweeping boat (both factions)
https://www.rbth.com/defence/2017/07/26 ... avy_810840

Tesla Speedboat or Frigate - Russia only - ideal for hit and run/ swarm tactics
Tesla Cruiser - Russia only - fires massive emp pulses / lighting to shore installations
Demolition "gunboat" - Ukraine only - Nuke truck on the water


Soviets - Underwater fleet:
Submarines - ICBM missile submarines ("Nuke subs")
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ICBMs

Minelaying submarines - both factions
Tesla Submarine - Russia only
Demolition / Nuke mini-submarine - Ukraine only

=======================================================================================================
3 - Without any WestWood or OpenRA limits (inspiration drawn from Cavedog's "Total Annihilation")
Simply put: A 1-on-1 copy of most common real-life naval vessels.


I hope this input helps to fuel the Naval discussion

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