Balance thread for release 20190314

Trying to locate my missing ore trucks

Discussion about the game and its default mods.
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Clockwork
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by Clockwork » Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:27 pm

Luftwaffe wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:13 pm
https://j.gifs.com/r8258W.gif
If you moved one cell backwards with the mammoth you would've killed all the inf...

It's not the games fault if you're aren't using all the mechanics of a unit right. If your playing to the strengths of the opposition (the infantry in your case) then you deserve to lose your mammoth.

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Luftwaffe
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by Luftwaffe » Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:41 pm

Happy wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:27 pm
Luftwaffe wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:13 pm
https://j.gifs.com/r8258W.gif
If you moved one cell backwards with the mammoth you would've killed all the inf...

It's not the games fault if you're aren't using all the mechanics of a unit right. If your playing to the strengths of the opposition (the infantry in your case) then you deserve to lose your mammoth.
Now, I am not using the mechanics right, okay, that's another argument...
So far the arguments were: "because most people want it" and " do your research"

However, you are just pivoting and recycling that one scenario from the gif you made with Punsho - where a mammoth wins by running away. In most other cases, soldiers with equal cost will win.

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Clockwork
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by Clockwork » Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:44 pm

Luftwaffe wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:41 pm
Happy wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:27 pm
Luftwaffe wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:13 pm
https://j.gifs.com/r8258W.gif
If you moved one cell backwards with the mammoth you would've killed all the inf...

It's not the games fault if you're aren't using all the mechanics of a unit right. If your playing to the strengths of the opposition (the infantry in your case) then you deserve to lose your mammoth.
Now, I am not using the mechanics right, okay, that's another argument...
So far the arguments were: "because most people want it" and " do your research"

However, you are just pivoting and recycling that one scenario from the gif you made with Punsho - where a mammoth wins by running away. In most other cases, soldiers with equal cost will win.
What Punsho and the rest are saying is that you have cherry picked the barebones scenario to prove your point. But this game is so interwined with other factors that a cost head to head match up is a very bad way of demonstrating a units effectiveness. For example in a head to head matchup, a heavy tank will kill and almost destroy another medium tank in a 2v1 which by your logic means theyre overperforming as one heavy tanks cheaper than 2 medium tanks - but you havent considered the speed bonus of mediums that make them better at crushing infantry and tank flanks and all around army mobility. A tanya can kill mathematically unlimited amounts of infantry in a head to head, does that mean Tanya is over performing?

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Orb
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by Orb » Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:51 pm

"However, you are just pivoting and recycling that one scenario from the gif you made with Punsho - where a mammoth wins by running away. In most other cases, soldiers with equal cost will win."

Once again, no. That gif shows perfectly spread infantry, AND the mammoth kills the two rifles first. That's a cherry picked situation. In "most situations", the soldiers with equal cost will lose.

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Luftwaffe
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by Luftwaffe » Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:05 pm

Orb wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:51 pm
"However, you are just pivoting and recycling that one scenario from the gif you made with Punsho - where a mammoth wins by running away. In most other cases, soldiers with equal cost will win."

Once again, no. That gif shows perfectly spread infantry, AND the mammoth kills the two rifles first. That's a cherry picked situation. In "most situations", the soldiers with equal cost will lose.
Unbelievable, but nothing you said is actually true - maybe try watching again?

The Mamm kills a rocket first, so only 5 rockets get to shot at it. Then it kills rifle.
The Infantry is coming from one direction, not perfectly spread - plus they gradually move towards fewer cells as they advance.

The only cherry-picked situation is when a mamm is running away. End of story. Infantry and especially rockets are OP if anything.

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Clockwork
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by Clockwork » Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:15 pm

Luftwaffe wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:05 pm
The only cherry-picked situation is when a mamm is running away. End of story. Infantry and especially rockets are OP if anything.
The mammoth can also chase the inf when its retreating... This game is not TD. You cant build one type of unit and be upset when it doesn't bill cosby everything. This game is a correct roation and ratio of units being built for example soviet yak, flaks and v2s being a mobile pseudo army. This is why the arguement of head to head fights do not work. The mammoth as per punshos screenshots is defeating a infantry and tank army while kiting and an army with a MRJ (its hard counter). This is the overpeformance. Maybe in team games were the average apm is 12, mammoths will be tanked trying to fight inf in a head to head fight.

lawANDorder
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by lawANDorder » Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:54 pm

ZxGanon wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:49 pm
I´m sorry to interrupt this discussion about Mammoths with something "Trivial" but since when are people called out for having "bad attitude" when they have seemingly done their research and the other guy didnt but got offended and stated he was offended so everyone else pitties the offended guy?
Not sure if aimed at me but if so, I didn't call out anybody. Don't think talking about people helps us to get the balance changes for next release merged.
Luftwaffe wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:05 pm
The only cherry-picked situation is when a mamm is running away. End of story. Infantry and especially rockets are OP if anything.
Played some teamgames today and when there have been mammoths, they have been kiting (running away while shooting). This doesn't seem to be uncommon. Potential general OP'ness of infantry is I think a topic for itself.
Happy wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:15 pm
The mammoth as per punshos screenshots is defeating a infantry and tank army while kiting and an army with a MRJ (its hard counter).
Orb wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:03 pm
Myself and Punsho have shown videos of several common gameplay situations where the mammoth is overperforming.
Would agree with ^ and the proposal to reduce anti infantry missiles a bit and *make kiting a bit harder* makes sense IMO. I also liked Smitty's approach to make MRJ's more viable against mammoths. Wondering if their jamming range could be increased a bit without causing too heavy side effects.

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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by netnazgul » Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:45 am

@Luftwaffe looks to me that you are trying to protect the current balance and say that Mammonths are fine and shouldn't be nerfed. But then that completely contradicts the current disposition where people pick Soviet most of the time in both 1v1s and teamgames, and games, if they reach T3, turn up mass-Mammonth slugfests.

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ZxGanon
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by ZxGanon » Sat Apr 06, 2019 5:51 pm

@LawANDorder
It wasn´t pointed at you but at FiveAces and the others calling Punsho rude even though he used no offensive language or any kind of aggressive wording whatsoever.

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Luftwaffe
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by Luftwaffe » Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:42 pm

ZxGanon wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 5:51 pm
@LawANDorder
It wasn´t pointed at you but at FiveAces and the others calling Punsho rude even though he used no offensive language or any kind of aggressive wording whatsoever.
Listen, we are all contributors and fans of this game so really no need for the crap attitude. If it matters, Punsho did call me " a retard" on discord even though I don't even know him or even talk to him ever- just based on a few messages on this forum. Though it's very immature, I could not care less, the point is to turn this discussion into the productive one, and let everyone speak freely and with arguments. This has gone wrong on so many levels like any time balance changes are mentioned, a lot of players are very subjective about their opinions which is perfectly human, but again no need for arrogance or crap attitude.

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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by camundahl » Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:06 pm

Honestly I'm happy Mammoths are getting revenge, I've lost so many to bad micro vs rocket soldiers lol.

I think the Soviet advantage goes far beyond just having Mammoths, but I do agree it makes sense to tone down the Tusk Missile Range. It also makes sense to let Mammoth use Tusk on other targets in combination with its cannons.

lawANDorder
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by lawANDorder » Fri Apr 12, 2019 11:22 am

Let's move on to the next topic: so far the temporary gps idea got mostly good reactions in this thread. Do we have to expect greater fallout when introducing this?

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Punsho
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by Punsho » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:46 pm

After many iterations V.9 maps are out! Completely reworked naval!
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_Il ... sp=sharing

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Materianer
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by Materianer » Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:44 pm

I dont really like the idea of giving the advanced chrono to all allied factions.
It already seem to be excessive if someone teleports half of his army.

Why not nerf the ironcurtain time a bit ( just a little bit ) and introduce something new.

A "new" feature like the chrono vortex.

If you chono into an area there will be a chance that there appear a vortex after a while.
The more often units was chronod into the area the higher will be a chance for it to come.
Thats quite similar to how it in the original RA worked i think, but there it could have spawned anywhere on the map after many chonos.
In the orignial game it didnt dissapear or after a long while and was an unstoppable teslabolt shooting storm.
It would be overpowered if it is the same because it was really strong and smashing all buildings if touched by it.
Maybe make it just weaker and not so long lasting.

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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by Punsho » Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:33 pm

Materianer wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:44 pm
I dont really like the idea of giving the advanced chrono to all allied factions.
It already seem to be excessive if someone teleports half of his army.

Why not nerf the ironcurtain time a bit ( just a little bit ) and introduce something new.
Let's look at purpose, counter play, cost efficiency:

Both Chronosphere and Iron Curtain are designed to break stalemates. Chrono does it by opening more fronts while Iron Curtain by literally breaking defensive positions

When fighting against Chrono your main goat is kill as many units that were chronoed and protect important infrastructure. Anti-infantry aircraft can easily take care of Artilleries, Chrono tanks, MCV's, Light tanks. Against Medium tanks best course of action is to wall off buildings. Aircraft are generally useful so it's not a big loss to be forced to build them. Concrete walls aren't very expensive, 200$ a pop. To wall off a structure it costs a minimum of 800$. In reference one Medium tank 850$, Yak 1350$. A wall can perfectly defend against 5 chronoed tanks and against most structures it's not even worth building as tanks can not kill them before their timer runs out. Having some anti-armour aircraft helps. Iron Curtain can also be used to defend important structures cancelling out Chrono

Against IC you can either use Chronosphere to teleport Iron curtained units away. It's difficult to do since right after the IC has fired units spread out. It's easier to do with the German C. The other more common way to combat IC is to run away, try losing as little assets to it as possible. When you know IC is ready you need to be ready to flee. Ready to give up some land, some structures. Their destruction is inevitable

Now they need to be compared. Both have the same health, same cost, power consumption, charge up intervals. non-German Chronosphere is situational, in defence it can only chrono out a few enemy vehicles if lucky. In offence can be used to take out a few enemy vehicles, it also can be used to snipe important structures but at a risk of losing expensive units such as tanks, artilleries, no more that one structure can be taken out at a time. It has some creative use possibilities that can provide a ton of value but opportunities for them come up very rarely. Now, Iron Curtain will always provide value, it always helps in defence and in offence. It can completely stop attacks and annihilate defensive positions. Costs nothing to use but the reset on timer. I don't see how this is balanced. Guaranteed versus situational value. And the worst thing is that those situations are rare and far between

Let's not forget that in most team games almost every Allied player is already picking Germany. In high level 1v1's Chronosphere is too weak and situational so most don't even bother building it. While Iron Curtain is something most build immediately after Tech Centre. It is rushed, no other tier 3 unit/structure provides this much guaranteed value.

I don't want to nerf Iron Curtain as it's currently in a perfect spot. It does what it's supposed to do. It breaks stalemates and often doesn't even let them happen. I think that Chronosphere is the one that must change.

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