Balance thread for release 20190314

Trying to locate my missing ore trucks

Discussion about the game and its default mods.
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Punsho
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by Punsho » Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:49 am

Luftwaffe wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:49 am

The crucial example is that 6 rockets and 2 rifles provide a much better return on investment (same cost) than one Mammoth. If your desire is to incentivize people to use more infantry and skip teching-up then this is the way to go.

It does not make sense to spend time building all the required buildings, wait for Mam build time, and then have a subpar unit. There should be a balance-matrix that favors investing into tech and advanced units.
So if you advance a tech level you want all the previous units to become useless? Teching up should provide more options, tools, give deadlier and harder to counter units. I don't want said units to become practically invincible in terms of cost. Currently Mammoths are powerful against Soviets and insanely good against Allies
Luftwaffe wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:49 am
The whole idea of this game is to reward players for investing more into the tech, and beyond just the basic units and buildings.

The crucial example is that 6 rockets and 2 rifles provide a much better return on investment (same cost) than one Mammoth. If your desire is to incentivize people to use more infantry and skip teching-up then this is the way to go.
Punsho gives out another example where 2 medium tanks 1900 kill 1 Mammoth (2000). Imagine those 2 tanks with 1 rifle, probably they would both survive.
I used Medium Tanks because compared with Mammoths they are really weak. Mediums are just anti-tank and their only advantage for the cost is their speed while Mammoths have good anti-air and strong anti-infantry capabilities. By all means Mediums should be a counter. All units need to have counters and as Allies you need to go to great lengths to counter mammoths cost efficiently and the tier 3 method I described previously can be easily countered by Mobile Flaks. It's also about how easy it is for the Soviets play this strategy while being ridiculously hard to counter it being Allies

It's already clear that you haven't seen competitive games where Mammoth tanks are being used to their full potential. Next time do your research

lawANDorder
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by lawANDorder » Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:14 am

One advantage of discussing a problem is that we can share our experiences and get a better picture of it than if we were trying to solve it alone.
Next time do your research
^ is not helpful at all. What would have been helpful is to share a replay or gif. It is expected if you notice during the discussion that a person lacks crucial information / misunderstands things that you help this person and provide this information for everyone because if one person doesn't know or misunderstood, there are likely more.

It's OK to disagree and and if somebody is overchallanged by this, then this person should not participate in any discussion. It's also OK to be wrong because this is how we learn.

If we get back to an elitist attitude then we can just stop the discussion here. It would just be a waste of time, like it would be if people who code needed to google RAGL replays to "do their research". Those people who played these games should share their experience instead, like all other players that want to contribute, no matter what league they play in. That is the purpose of threads like this, so let's continue being productive.

lawANDorder
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by lawANDorder » Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:38 pm

For reference, these are the last PRs that involved mammoths:

16244
MRJ's have always been an underutilized unit. A slight cost decrease should encourage more use. This change is also an attempt to balance out the buffs to the mammoth tank resulting from #16112.
13790
The cloak detection for the Mammoth Tank is part of a group of changes aimed to make the use of the Phase Transport more deliberate. All changes involving cloak detection in this list is part of that package and the standardization of cloak detection range for all defensive structures in the playtest preceded this move.
12040
As pointed to in the forum discussion thread (not the recent poll thread) linked in the PR the speed buff is exactly what is expressed as the most crucial element as to making this unit useful for whatever purpose you want it assigned to.

Initially the speed boost will reward casual players looking to invest in Mammoth Tanks for its iconic value. Long term this represents a foundation of which additional changes to the Mammoth Tank can be added, given that the current speed fundamentally cripples the tank both as an "utility" unit as well as a front line army unit.

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Luftwaffe
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by Luftwaffe » Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:54 pm

Punsho wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:49 am
Next time do your research
Yeah, Punsho, dude, there is no point discussing anything with you, your attitude is total crap and counterproductive. You don't even read the posts or maybe you just don't understand. I have posted the screenshots with a Mammoth being destroyed by 6 rockets and 2 infantry in any scenario (attack, defend etc). You totally fail to understand the point between basic vs advanced units.

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Luftwaffe
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by Luftwaffe » Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:02 pm

Basic soldier units kill advanced Mamooth (same cost) with the shroud on: https://streamable.com/ju25se

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FiveAces
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by FiveAces » Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:36 pm

Luftwaffe wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:02 pm
Basic soldier units kill advanced Mamooth (same cost) with the shroud on: https://streamable.com/ju25se
I agree that Punsho's attitude is not helpful here, but trust me when I say that Mammooths hardcounter infantry. Your scenario pits 6 rockets into melee range of a Mammooth, but in reality this is never going to happen. Right now the anti-infantry tusk missiles have a range of 8 cells, which basically makes them a artillery unit that also happens to be heavily armored. Also take into consideration that they move slightly faster than infantry... With the opportunity fire changes, there's no way you'll ever catch one with rockets.

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Orb
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by Orb » Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:45 pm

Well, to make sure we're on the same page and stop people from just saying whatever, I recorded some videos of mammoths.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... Kiting.mp4

This is a mammoth with no micro, opponent attack moves in with the "counter" of 6 rockets 2 rifles.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... Kiting.mp4

This is a mammoth I did some minimal micro with (kiting), opponent attack moves in with 6 rockets 2 rifles.

In the first case, the mammoth takes 33% damage. In the 2nd, it takes no damage.


I'd like to point out that Luftwaffe created a situation where mammoths are surrounded by infantry (impossible situation), to prove they're balanced. This was pointed out as a flaw in his reasoning, but then he kept running with the conclusion that mammoths are balanced. He should "do his research", instead of continuing to argue something that has no basis anymore.
Luftwaffe wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:32 pm
No, actually they don't vaporize - test it yourself. Make a map with 2 rifles and 6 rockets (the same cost) vs a mammoth and this is what happens: The mam killed only 1 rifle and 1 rocket.
netnazgul wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:42 pm
Thing is, situations like a lone Mammonth circled by several rockets are hypothetical and non-existing in the game, 99% of the time infantry will rather be incoming from a single side.
Luftwaffe wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:49 am
The crucial example is that 6 rockets and 2 rifles provide a much better return on investment (same cost) than one Mammoth. If your desire is to incentivize people to use more infantry and skip teching-up then this is the way to go.

SirCake
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by SirCake » Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:47 pm

Well, your comparison is kind of problematic.
Since you pitted anti tank infantry in a favourable position against a tank with a mainly anti tank role. Even in theory the result should be clear.

Try to stack the rockets in one cell and retry.
Also 3 mammoths vs lots of rocket soldiers can win (kiting)

Pls try rockets vs apc or ranger to see the counter-example. Or rockets vs tanya.

However, the rocket soldiers are too good all around. They not only shred tanks but bunkers, aircraft and normal buildings.
Maybe building armor vs rockets could be increased to alleviate the rocket soldiers universal power.
Hell, even something like more range for it so it outranges basic defenses like in the original; for exchange of fire rate or/and damage.

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Punsho
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by Punsho » Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:11 pm

Ok, I made some gifs

Mammoth Tank can run away from infantry killing countless soldiers in the process
Image

Ultimate anti-infantry machine
Image

They can snipe out infantry without retaliation
Image

Against a standard army composition
Image

An army with a radar jammer still dies
Image

Longbows and radar jammers vaporise in seconds (not the best micro by the allied player)
Image
Last edited by Punsho on Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Luftwaffe
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by Luftwaffe » Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:45 pm

I acknowledge that soldiers surrounding a Mammoth is not realistic gameplay but that was just to start off and prove the basic point.

However, I have created 2 other scenarios: First, soldiers attack a Mammoth and second, The Mammoth attacks soldiers.
Every time soldiers win - same cost ($2000) but basic units win vs. advanced unit *(not factoring in cost with the all the required buildings, time, opportunity cost etc).

Take a look: https://streamable.com/ju25se

SirCake: rockets vs tanya - Well, Tanya is an advanced special unit so should easily win. The problem is that Tanya gets crushed by an Ore Truck, that should go away ASAP.

I agree with SirCake - the rockets are way too powerful and rifles are way too cheap so they basically absorb the shots which gives the basic unit spam unfair advantage.

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ZxGanon
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by ZxGanon » Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:49 pm

I´m sorry to interrupt this discussion about Mammoths with something "Trivial" but since when are people called out for having "bad attitude" when they have seemingly done their research and the other guy didnt but got offended and stated he was offended so everyone else pitties the offended guy?

Facts dont care about your feelings.

Do your research.
Im not just talking about the minor ground work but all of it. 6 Rocket Soldiers surrounding 1 Mammoth Tank is one scenario where the Tank loses but there are 100 times more scenarios where he kills everything that is not a Tank because he simply outranges it.

I can also show only the facts that support my agenda but this isn´t politics. We are trying to get this game fair and fun.

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Luftwaffe
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by Luftwaffe » Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:03 pm

Image[/img]
ZxGanon wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:49 pm
I´m sorry to interrupt this discussion about Mammoths with something "Trivial" but since when are people called out for having "bad attitude" when they have seemingly done their research and the other guy didnt but got offended and stated he was offended so everyone else pitties the offended guy?

Facts dont care about your feelings.

Do your research.
Im not just talking about the minor ground work but all of it. 6 Rocket Soldiers surrounding 1 Mammoth Tank is one scenario where the Tank loses but there are 100 times more scenarios where he kills everything that is not a Tank because he simply outranges it.

I can also show only the facts that support my agenda but this isn´t politics. We are trying to get this game fair and fun.
Dude, you are missing the point and please get the facts straight. My 2 out of 3 examples show "research" in a realistic gameplay - soldiers attacking and mamm attacking.
Punsho's gif shows soldiers chasing a mamm - that's how is it supposed to be - infantry should not be able to chase and kill an advanced unit.

There is no 100 scenarios, each frontline scenario soldiers with equal cost will kill a single mamm. except when they are chasing it.
Last edited by Luftwaffe on Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Orb
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by Orb » Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:03 pm

Your link doesn't work Luftwaffe.

Here, let's use your logic for a moment.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... _Melee.mp4

As you can see, the advanced unit artillery died to infantry, what it's supposed to counter! Without firing a single shot.

Following your logic the artillery should probably get double health and have no minimum range.


If you're not going to consider normal gameplay situations then this is just not a fruitful discussion. Myself and Punsho have shown videos of several common gameplay situations where the mammoth is overperforming.

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Punsho
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by Punsho » Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:07 pm

Luftwaffe wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:03 pm
Dude, you are missing the point and please get the facts straight. My 2 out of 3 examples show "research" in a realistic gameplay - soldiers attacking and mamm attacking.
Punsho's gif shows soldiers chasing a mamm - that's how is it supposed to be - infantry should not be able to chase and kill an advanced unit.

There is no 100 scenarios, each frontline scenario soldiers with equal cost will kill a single mamm. except when they are chasing it.
Why would you let your Mammoths sit and die? If your opponent wants to engage you. You move your units away and kill his forces in the process
Last edited by Punsho on Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Luftwaffe
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Re: Balance thread for release 20190314

Post by Luftwaffe » Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:13 pm

Orb wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:03 pm
Your link doesn't work Luftwaffe.

Here, let's use your logic for a moment.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... _Melee.mp4

As you can see, the advanced unit artillery died to infantry, what it's supposed to counter! Without firing a single shot.

Following your logic the artillery should probably get double health and have no minimum range.


If you're not going to consider normal gameplay situations then this is just not a fruitful discussion. Myself and Punsho have shown videos of several common gameplay situations where the mammoth is overperforming.
That's not "my logic" at all. That may be your logic??
We were discussing Mammoth tanks vs infantry scenario - singled out, not in a context of other units., not saying that all units should be "jack of all trades" - that makes absolutely no sense.

https://j.gifs.com/r8258W.gif

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