I consider to quit permanently

Mapping probably even more complicated than making a mod.

Discussion about the game and its default mods.
Alley
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:03 pm

I consider to quit permanently

Post by Alley » Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:00 am

Making maps for OpenRA is more difficult than making my own game from the beginning to the end and considering that I have made some I really don't overdo it. :) I decided to quit working with OpenRA with an exception on holidays when I don't have to work so I am able to use whole days instead of short evenings being tired also but now when I had to do other things also I really feel I may not finish my next map before my holidays end. I have spent 3 days to make some little things to a system and now I found another bug from my map that may need to be fixed creating totally another system in the YAML file and I even haven't touched LUA yet. :eek: I have kept hoping that a next map will be easier than the previous one because of things I already have done but every new map has a new case that must be done differently.
For example, instead of Turkey, there is Ukraine now and for this enemy, I can't give a flag because there is no way to add a flag to a new faction. I can give Ukraine for my AI player but if I change its technology then I also change technology for a multiplayer who have Ukraine selected. All new factions outside old RA will crash because of trying to show a flag which does not exist. This means I must to add new structures, vehicles, and others instead of adding a new faction prerequisites and even if I can hide one of the duplications when a player has captured another structure building a new MCV will have no technology owned by a custom AI because Ukrainian MCV will be hidden to show only one MCV on the list for building in-game.

I don't work with OpenRA next to a job because in the evenings I just can try my possible idea, make a lot of tests and failures and when I have to go work I even have no idea if my system may ever work properly or I should remove and try another trick. And it is hard to work because of no accomplishments in my own life. However, now I feel I even can't accomplish a map even with holidays because I have just week left and I even haven't touched LUA yet. This is why making maps for OpenRA is impossible for them who must work for money because we can't sit and focus calmly with such complicated editing but we must cancel conception every day and need to search for it another day instead of keeping going.

May this be easier in the future? Because if I can't make this map in a holiday then I have no ideas left from where to pick some extra time which means I quit permanently.

pointbreak
Posts: 42
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:54 am

Re: I consider to quit permanently

Post by pointbreak » Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:01 am

I quit making maps after the latest update changed some yaml keywords. I could of course change the yaml for this version but then they'll break it again in the next one, so yea, no thanks. :dead:

lawANDorder
Posts: 98
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:20 pm

Re: I consider to quit permanently

Post by lawANDorder » Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:50 pm

If you don't enjoy it, leave it be.

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Graion Dilach
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Re: I consider to quit permanently

Post by Graion Dilach » Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:15 pm

Mappers shouldn't need to deal with YAML (excluding weather and map lighting). Mapmodding shouldn't be treated alongside plain mapping though and if you're doing the former...

If you're doing mapmods, you're already dealing with a good half of the issues a modder deals with. Still, i can safely tell you, modders got more on their plate.

Alley
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:03 pm

Re: I consider to quit permanently

Post by Alley » Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:29 am

I already quitted this. At least for this holiday... It's only a week left and continuing the project that so far has caused me only days sitting in front of the computer for nothing I probably wouldn't be motivated more than knowing I was able to do nothing with my holidays which would be a disappointment when I am going to start a painful job for making other people rich again...

I just think that mapping for OpenRA is too difficult considering that a lot of 3D games can be modded much simpler. And I can be honest. I have made my own games from the beginning and it is far from being that complicated than mapping for OpenRA, really. :( That is why I started this topic also.
lawANDorder wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:50 pm
If you don't enjoy it, leave it be.
I enjoy the game and it is very well made. Having something that old RA didn't have kept its controls and gameplay experience still original enough also. But yeah, I don't enjoy making projects for this because I am just a fan and if I should be an expert then I probably would prefer to create an engine by myself. :roll:

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Graion Dilach
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Re: I consider to quit permanently

Post by Graion Dilach » Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:27 pm

Alley wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:29 am
I just think that mapping for OpenRA is too difficult considering that a lot of 3D games can be modded much simpler. And I can be honest. I have made my own games from the beginning and it is far from being that complicated than mapping for OpenRA, really. :( That is why I started this topic also.
Mappping is about creating a map with the map editor. Mapmods != mapping. From thge first moment you start throwing traits and custom units together, your map stops being a map.

I don't see any issues here tbh. Either you limit the possibilities with dumbing down and making modding easy, either you let opportunities roam on the cost of a complex interface. OpenRA chose the latter.

If you're frustrated at ORA YAMLs, then ORA modding isn't for you. I've shifted to OpenRA from RA2 modding and while RA2 was more basic, I welcome OpenRA's complexity because it allows me more options to do what I want from it. If you're claiming War3 is easier, then the War3 unit editor GUI is a complicated mess and I'm fairly certain the biggest mapmods are scripting directly instead of using it anyway.

Blaming the engine for your frustration won't work IMO. You should've atleast pop up on the ORA Discord for requesting help where needed from the start tbh.

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FRenzy
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Re: I consider to quit permanently

Post by FRenzy » Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:32 pm


N/a
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Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:51 pm

Re: I consider to quit permanently

Post by N/a » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:24 am

Sorry to hear you are feeling disheartened as FRenzy has done above, joining the OpenRA discord maybe you can collaborate with some like minded individuals to help get a project done on a limited time schedule.

All the best with whatever decision you take!

Matt
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Joined: Tue May 01, 2012 12:21 pm
Location: Germany

Re: I consider to quit permanently

Post by Matt » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:27 pm

There is an --update-map command for the utility which should automate your modded maps migration to a later OpenRA version. https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRAModSDK/ ... ne-version explains it, but only for mods. It works very similar on maps.

Alley
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:03 pm

Re: I consider to quit permanently

Post by Alley » Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:47 pm

Graion Dilach wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:27 pm
Mappping is about creating a map with the map editor. Mapmods != mapping. From thge first moment you start throwing traits and custom units together, your map stops being a map.

I don't see any issues here tbh. Either you limit the possibilities with dumbing down and making modding easy, either you let opportunities roam on the cost of a complex interface. OpenRA chose the latter.

If you're frustrated at ORA YAMLs, then ORA modding isn't for you. I've shifted to OpenRA from RA2 modding and while RA2 was more basic, I welcome OpenRA's complexity because it allows me more options to do what I want from it. If you're claiming War3 is easier, then the War3 unit editor GUI is a complicated mess and I'm fairly certain the biggest mapmods are scripting directly instead of using it anyway.

Blaming the engine for your frustration won't work IMO. You should've atleast pop up on the ORA Discord for requesting help where needed from the start tbh.
I agree that I actually didn't deal with mapping but modding rather. I also don't blame OpenRA engine because it really works great but I still find there are too few tools for making changes to OpenRA or its maps. I successful have created an enemy, built a whole map with custom doors, and effects and have changed a whole look for Doom which is fully 3D looking and a very big game where you even can teleport from one map to another etc. I didn't want to make a new Red Alert 2 nor didn't want to change about where any buttons are positioned or how those look. I just wanted to change a tech tree and flag for one very simple AI only which is much simpler than a Doom enemy but I even learned about how to movie soldiers like in weeks if not in months. I am not here to blame OpenRA no matter how my message looks. My posts can be considered as feedback to editing part and I hope there will be some more tools, simpler language or more traits/commands/definitions to make OpenRA editable for fans not for experts and developers only.
FRenzy wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:32 pm
https://discord.gg/UcUztfr just in case
N/a wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:24 am
Sorry to hear you are feeling disheartened as FRenzy has done above, joining the OpenRA discord maybe you can collaborate with some like minded individuals to help get a project done on a limited time schedule.

All the best with whatever decision you take!
Thank you for giving an alternative and advice but its too late already. If I read answers it was Friday already and there was 3 day left to make a whole thing, 2 free days because the home has responsibilities too. I already quit but I think I will retry once again in the next holidays and begin looking from that Discord community then. :)
Matt wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:27 pm
There is an --update-map command for the utility which should automate your modded maps migration to a later OpenRA version. https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRAModSDK/ ... ne-version explains it, but only for mods. It works very similar on maps.
Thanks! Fortunately, I haven't had to update my map because when I update OpenRA my maps work with the latest versions also just after that I have copied my files over from old version to the newer one. :) I guess I am just too busy to edit OpenRA. :/ Anyways, I will not stop playing OpenRA.

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Sleipnir
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Re: I consider to quit permanently

Post by Sleipnir » Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:38 pm

Custom factions are one of the few (possibly even the only) thing that can't be changed from maps. This is because factions require changes to the mod's UI (flag definition and sidebar styling), which maps are not able to override.

The resource center has a button in the sidebar to update custom maps to the latest release, so modders don't even need to use the utility.

zypres
Posts: 42
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:50 am
Location: Bergen

Re: I consider to quit permanently

Post by zypres » Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:53 pm

Hi,
lets get back on right track.

What can be made easier for advanced map modders? We want them, but we also know devs got limited time, and have enough to do.

Can some of you explain what things would help the most, rated in top 3 things, and can we have request/wish issues for them?

Do we need more community, tools, or guides for advanced map-modders?
And could it be possible to make maps with some more viewable solutions, like in github or simmilar, so its easy for other to come with tips etc?
(first advanced modded map on github that many players could improve could be fun, like suggestions on google docs..)

Alley
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:03 pm

Re: I consider to quit permanently

Post by Alley » Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:08 pm

Thank you for your answers!

Sleipnir's answer is very helpful because he points to the point that a thing I want to do is impossible, it's directly nothing to do with my incompetence and I should not depend on my time on a thing that does not work out or I should find any alternatives to make level look good for my eyes.
I, however, agree also with zypress. I have always felt that Openra lacks guidelines and tools and there is too much-outdated information for the modders and mappers which may be followed probably for no reason. Openra itself is one of the very good games which gives pleasure for hours, days, months and even years but when you want to make your own challenge then well... There are some very visible ways about how to do it inside and outside of Openra application but it is unexpectedly even difficult as hacking to make something very simple. More guidelines, shortened and alone working examples, and also advanced toolkits that can make some LUA for Openra or some Openra's own simpler language would be nice. :) People who can do such a difficult thing to use CC+ and link the game with LUA API should also be able to make a simple program that writes code.

Peroult597
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:28 pm

Re: I consider to quit permanently

Post by Peroult597 » Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:46 pm

I'm quitting the game full stop. I hardly recognise the game, whatever people are doing to 'balance' the game is pretty misguided, and it is a shame. There are so many laggy bits about multiplayer, but it seems the focus is on nipping unit values and inf/tank issues, rather than basic gameplay. The guys I usually go online with have given up weeks ago and the mapping modding issues are the same. Best of luck, I shall check in sporadically but I can't see this being brought back to being a simple, fun game. Good luck though, hopefully some of you will see this through the hard times.

pointbreak
Posts: 42
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:54 am

Re: I consider to quit permanently

Post by pointbreak » Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:29 am

Sleipnir wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:38 pm
Custom factions are one of the few (possibly even the only) thing that can't be changed from maps. This is because factions require changes to the mod's UI (flag definition and sidebar styling), which maps are not able to override.

The resource center has a button in the sidebar to update custom maps to the latest release, so modders don't even need to use the utility.
Please make it so that I can add Belarus in a map. Or at best add it to the whole game. Give them a sniper as special unit, maybe partisan units of some kind, maybe cheaper inf (though that would mess up the early game), and advanced paratroopers as special ability (10 or 15 paratroopers with a flame thrower in them or two).

Here's their flag: Image

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